PDA

View Full Version : NELMA Suggestions



Nascarracerso
10-22-2006, 10:37 AM
No one in the entire field at the first NELMA race finished in their correct position. Not to mention the restarts can't even be called restarts considering that the leaders were taking the green out of four, while the rear end of the field was still not at speed on the front stretch. Not ONE car finished in their correct position...not one. Since when do cars who were involved in a wreck get to start ahead of cars who weren't involved in the wreck. It seemed like if you wanted a postition, just go ahead under caution and move up as many spots as you want. No official stopped anyone from doing anything.

Fkraft99
10-22-2006, 10:54 AM
I'm pretty sure we finished in the correct position.

LongIslandJam
10-22-2006, 11:00 AM
Everyone was set to their correct position each and every caution. The position they crossed at the last completed lap, the officials set them to where they were supposed to be.

If there's any specific incidents, feel free to contact me, info@nelmaracing.com or (516) 330-9737.

Thanks,

slice
10-22-2006, 01:44 PM
J.A

I was at the race and the finishing order is correct. I for one am looking forward to it taking off next year.

Joe Sescila

W. J.
10-22-2006, 02:03 PM
I was in the tower yesterday, taking notes on the race, and working right by the computer that keeps track of the transponders during the race. They do a better job than anything I've seen, and they were working perfectly yesterday, so I really don't see the problem, other than maybe not everyone understands how the system works. All restarts reverted to the previously completed lap, and those positions are radioed to the officials to line the field up properly. I can tell you that Brad, the guy doing this, is both experienced and extremely capable at doing this job.
So I guess the real question is, exactly what do you think your teams problem was, instead of speaking in vague generalities??? Every line-up was right on the money, from start, to every restart, to finish.

DriveitinDeep
10-22-2006, 06:18 PM
First Congrats to JRod, a well earned win.
Second, vague generalities WJ ?????

The kid saw the race and gave his opinion. The last time I looked EVERYONE
is entitled to their opinion without being dissed, especially by the moderator

W. J.
10-22-2006, 07:11 PM
Roger, he was not dissed by the moderator. I addressed it as 'vague generalities' because no specific instance of a problem was brought up. "No one in the entire race finished in their proper position"? Like Freddy said, someone must have, because the first guy across the line after 100 laps was declared the winner, and no one has protested to my knowledge. There were instances where the race could have been better, but most of the problems were with collisions between competitors, not with any officiating as far as I know, but to complain about cars positions in a single file restart? No matter where you run, the number of cars and the length of the track means that cars will seem to be spaced quite far apart when there are 25 on a 1/3 mile track, versus 15 on a 1/4 mile track. The problem would still be the same, but look different. By feature race time, all should have been familiar with where restarts took place, and paced themselves according to that and trying to be safe.
On the question about cars passing others under caution when being realigned for a restart, the only ones who did were being put to the rear for being involved in the caution, but not behind cars that were already one or more laps down. I believe that's done most everywhere.
I really am sorry that you took this the wrong way, as I didn't mean to be offensive to anyone, but merely challenge the statement in hopes a more specific question might be posed. I hope the above makes that a bit clearer. If not, let us (or me) know.

Jeff T
10-22-2006, 09:17 PM
There was one instance I do remember I found questionable where the 68 spun on his own and then was put in front of the 39 for the restart instead of being put in the back of the field. I don't know if it would have changed the outcome of the race, but I do know that at that time, that particular official call was not correct.
As for the restarts, the track officials should explain to the teams before the race if the leader starts the race or if the flagger starts the race. There should also needs to be a designated restart line (which there is) and the officials need to hold the line as to jumping the restarts. What I saw yesterday was restarts beginning halfway down the backstretch.
I don't want Billy and the officials to take this as someone crying sour grapes, but rather as a suggestion for future events. I like the facility and I am happy that they are welcoming us to compete there, but I just think that they need to close up some of the loose ends before the next event.

LongIslandJam
10-22-2006, 09:41 PM
Jeff,

Thanks for your input. I view all opinions as input. As long as its not outright bashing, I don't mind it. I appreciate it as its through the racers, teams, sponsors, fans, tracks, etc. input that this series will continue to grow. As I said during the driver's meeting, we can make the rules, provide the sponsors, and give the venue, the drivers will ultimately make the series what it is, and with the talent we have, I am confident we are headed in the right direction.

I do not recall the incident of the 68, but we will learn from it. When I get the video, I will take notes and see what we can do better and where we need to tighten up the reins.

Restarts are one of those areas which needs work. I think the single file restarts worked beautifully in saving cars and creating some solid racing. When we develop the 2007 rules, these "gray areas" will be solidified, through the help of tracks, officials, and competitors.

Thanks once again,

Fkraft99
10-22-2006, 09:59 PM
I do have to agree... Any restart with the 19 leading was a joke. He'd take off coming off of 2... string the field out... then slow down when he got to 3 and nearly wreck the whole field. That's what put Metzger out because he hit someone when the 19 stacked everyone up. I don't know about the flagman starting it, but at least have a spot like Riverhead or most tracks, like the middle of 3 and 4 at Riverhead... not an exact spot, but at least a generally consistant area.

FK

The Bullfather
10-22-2006, 10:52 PM
Yeah that was my major complaint, Freddie and I both were wondering after every restart what the heck was going on! I noticed a faded line in turn 4, we need to work on a starting point for next season. Glad to see all the drivers working together, except the 19 and 07 at the end, but it did seem like it was going to be expected after the on track incident. Glad the right people were in whoses ever ear it needed to be in and kept a situtation from becoming something bigger.

Turn2Guru
10-23-2006, 08:14 AM
We also need scorers who can make visual corrections to deals like this. Mike Coll is clearly in the wreck in turn one (photo #248) on lap 99 and was given his spot back to finish second. The wreck was in turn one so he was already scored on the final lap by the transponders. Going back a lap it would have to be up to the officials to determine who was in the wreck. There were a few situations in turn three where cars stopped for a blocked track and were sent to the back because they never made it back to the line for the transponder to pick them up. So they went to the rear assuming they were in the wreck. Just something that could use a little human input. I understand it is a judgment call, but stopping for a wreck and hitting nothing, or hitting the cars that were in the wreck should be a no brainer. Awesome job organizing this JA, we all had a great weekend. One of the best races of the weekend though was watching the tow vehicles and crew vehicles of Eric, Roger, Kevin and Scott dry the track after the typhoon we had that morning. These guys did an awesome job, about 42 miles were turned at this track in the drying process. At least it didn't snow.

Turn2Guru
10-23-2006, 08:29 AM
I just watched the video highlights on the Jam and the wreck on the last lap clearly shows the 07 never stopped or lost forward momentum at any time. He should have been the leader for the last lap or am I missing something here. Looks like the 19 comes down on him to cause the wreck so rough riding should not be an issue. Oh well it's over anyway.

mafap
10-23-2006, 08:45 AM
"Mike Coll is clearly in the wreck in turn one (photo #248) on lap 99 and was given his spot back to finish second".

NOT! Caution Was out when fisher hit him as he was passing the wreck

RGeeProductions
10-23-2006, 08:52 AM
I agree with mafap. Mike was avoiding the 2 wrecked cars, he didn't cause it or be involved in it. Look at video instead of the picture.
If an accident blocks you and you're not the cause or part of, you get position back from last lap. Call was correct.

Turn2Guru
10-23-2006, 09:42 AM
The white flag was waving when the wreck happened. If you watch the video clip, none of the cars stopped forward momentum until Mike hit the 19. As long as the 07 and the 19 were still moving forward, which they were, there should not have been a caution thrown. Even though the 19 spun, he saved it and was driving away. Mike slid into the picture and both he and the 19 stopped, that should have been the yellow. The rest of the field was almost a straight away back, so time should have been allotted for them to keep going before the caution. The 07 kept going, yet was sent to the rear and the 19 could have continued going if Mike hadn't slid into the deal. I understand your view point, so you should understand mine. I was right there and am also watching the whole thing unfold on video. If the caution was thrown, it was way to soon, because both cars involved were still going forward. Watch the video. No one is crying here about who finished where, we are trying to point out possible problem areas to help make NELMA as fair and even a playing field as possible having teams from all over the North East. We don't want to end up with another division with inconsistant calls. Defend Mike if you must, I am not changing my opinion, I just call it like I see it. I like Mike and was one of the first to congratulate him with his time of 14.566, so this is not a vendetta against him. If it was any other driver, you would probably be upset they weren't sent to the back. I personally could care less who won the race, I am a fan of good, clean, fair racing and may the best or luckiest car win.

mafap
10-23-2006, 10:12 AM
wow......................... turn 1 guru? :confused:


Quote from Fisher "mike sorry for hitting you after I spun"

mafap
10-23-2006, 10:22 AM
"if you watch the video clip none of the cars stopped forward momentum until Mike hit the 19"

looked liked fisher was looking @ the wall to me

W. J.
10-23-2006, 11:00 AM
Turn2Guru.
The 07 was put to the rear for rough riding (his assist to the 19 in going around).

Turn2Guru
10-23-2006, 12:42 PM
:disgusted Now, I'm sure as the owner of the #75 car and the sponsor of the race, you are in no way a little one sided on this issue. Add your three years or so of racing experience and I am humbled to say that with the 20 years I have spent in every aspect of racing, I was foolish to think that someone as good as Larry Fischer would have been able to spin his car around and continue had your car not come into play. Thank You for your informative and eye opening view of this situation. However, Larry might just be a nice guy in saying sorry to you. I don't think the outcome of a race is determined on what is said to any driver after the race. Mike slid into the wreck yellow or not, in all my years of racing this usually means you become part of the wreck. I wasn't making this a personal post against Mike , I was merely making an observation, it could have involved any driver. So you can post your heart out, I was there, have my own opinion and congratulate you on your gift of second place, because, and I wasn't going to mention this but CLEARLY on the video the 7A beats you to the line, yet you got second place monies. Transponder a little misplaced, or am I seeing this wrong again for the second time? :confused: :confused: :confused:

mafap
10-23-2006, 12:58 PM
read the rules and Don't HATE

mafap
10-23-2006, 12:59 PM
and it was a 14.522

W. J.
10-23-2006, 01:07 PM
Okay, time to clear up a misconception one would get from watching the video. While the 7a appears to beat Mike to the line, the nose of the 7a is longer than Mike's. The transponder loop is located 132 inches before the line, and the rules state that with the wheel base mandated by the rules, the transponder is to be located 24 inches behind the rear axle, making it exactly 132 inches from the center hub of the front wheel. This is an issue that would have been addressed in tech, especially in Mike'as case, since it wasn't exactly his first race at Mountain.
The reason I know this is because I questioned it myself right after the race. I got my answer directly from Billy after expressing my concern at seeing the nose of the 7a ahead of Mike's.
Now, let's please try to remember the spirit of this thread once more, and that is suggestions for the betterment of NELMA.
Thanks everyone.

Turn2Guru
10-23-2006, 02:04 PM
I agree on the purpose of this post. However, it has been requested that I read the rules, so I did,
Mountain Speedway Procedural Rules #17
"ALL" cars making contact in an accident will be placed in rear. Any other cars not in the same call at another section of the track or spinning to avoid "WITHOUT CONTACT" will resume the race in the prior position. This call will be determined by the race director.
"Mike, sorry for hitting you after I spun" sounds like contact. It states nothing about when you enter the wreck. Rules have been read, Thanks. This WJ and JA is why I rarely post on here anymore. It always turns into a head butting contest because everyone has their back hairs up. I'm done with this post, my questions have been answered, thanks WJ, at least you take the time to give facts. I did not see the three cars around me get more than a visual on the transponder, if measurements were taken, I missed it, but I take your word on it.

Fkraft99
10-23-2006, 02:55 PM
Maann How about that kid in the 08 he was really something wasnt he ... LoL


:cheers:

trigger22
10-23-2006, 03:31 PM
Here is a suggestion for all starts. Instruct the drivers at the drivers meeting that the leader must maintain a consistent pace not a snails pace and not doing doing hot laps pace. If they speed up and then slow down like some drivers I know you wave off the start and put him or her to the rear. That cured the problem at Riverhead when I was doing the flagging. The drivers respected my call after they were made aware of what I wanted out of them.
Try it and see if it works for you.
Frank Bonsignore

01Legnd
10-23-2006, 05:20 PM
I saw the race this weekend and thought it showed promise. Good car count. Especially from LI. If Mahoning & mountain could get along and maybe if the race wasn't just after KOM, some more PA guys night have made it out. I'm looking forward to see this Touring series next season.

As for the last lap incident.
It was just that, The last lap of the last race of the year.
It's difficult for those who work on the cars and put in the huge effort to see the skill & entertainment in the same event. But as race fan, watching that 07 hunt & stalk the 19 for close to 70 laps made me forget there where other cars on the track. The 07 looking low, high, bumping the 19 to let him know on that corner he was quicker. The 19 car screaming his motor at the end of each straightaway, staying in the gas as long a possible, driving out of each corner so hard the tires would spin and rear would drift, but he kept it pinned to the floorboard to never leave that space for the 07.
Short track racing at it's best. (OK maybe a few laps door to door could have kicked it up a notch.) But it was one of the best duels I've seen all year.

:applause: To both drivers!

RACENUT
10-23-2006, 06:12 PM
I Would Like To Congratulate Mike Coll, Sean And Crew On Setting Fast Time And Finishing 2nd In The Race, Besides Getting Cash For Fast Time, I Heard They Were Also Given A Very Nice Clock. Way To Go Mike!-- Also To Turn 2 Guru, You Said The Owner Of The 75 Has Only 3 Years Of Nascar Experience, I Believe In Those 3 Years As An Owner He Has 5 Wins And 1 Track Championship. You Stated You Have 20 Years Of Nascar Experience In Every Aspect Of Racing. I Was Wondering, In Those 20 Years, How Many Wins And Championships Have You Won?

LongIslandJam
10-23-2006, 06:28 PM
Let's keep it to the series and not attacking each other (I don't want to close the thread because of that). Let's keep it to feedback, I like the suggestions. Thanks!

The Bullfather
10-23-2006, 06:45 PM
Watching Coll race is amazing, I saw him jump into that car 3 years ago, but really it wasn't till last year he got the seat full time, if I'm correct I believe he wasn't behind the wheel full season. I did a great championship interview with him, he good in front of the camera too. The kid has got talent, Sean Case saw them in him while he raced a Charger and asked him to sit behind the wheel for one race and it was on from there!

I rememeber talking with guys like Mortimer and Turbush during preseason and saying this kid is going to be good, they agreed he was going to be good. But did they think he'd be as good as he was this year? Coll raced the first few races before Riverhead schedule at Mountain and had the points lead, he asked around what he should do, it came down to Danny Turbush telling him to race for the championship, so he did!

Turn2Guru
10-23-2006, 07:05 PM
Against my better judgment I will answer your question. So, with what I can remember off the top of my head, with all the cars I have been involved with over the years, totals equal:

4 Championships
6 Second Place Points Finish
43 Wins
2 Rookie of the Year Awards
6 best Appearing Car Awards
Just a note, most of this was done with a 20 -24 car field. During this time, cars were actually sent home that did not qualify.

ONCE AGAIN, I did not make this a personal gripe against Mike, so relax people. We are supposed to be discussing what is needed to help NELMA get better grades. Sean took it personally and that is his deal. It just happened to be Mike who was the car in question. As I said before, if it was anyone else, none of this would be going on. So take a deep breath and let it go. And as for the long nose finish with the 7A, since when is a race scored on the last lap by a transponder in the rear of the car and not the first part of the car over the line. Never heard of that. We are supposed to be helping make NELMA better here. In a nut shell, they need more officiating. Other than that, weekend was great.

W. J.
10-23-2006, 07:18 PM
trigger22, Thank you for that suggestion, it sounds good, and I do seem to remember that's the way it is done at most places I've seen races at.

01Legnd, glad you enjoyed that, so did I. The only thing I would like to have change was to see it among 3 or 4 drivers like that, but hey, I think we'll take what we got and be happy. It was a good race, with almost predictable outcomes, especially that last incident, unfortunately, but that does happen a lot. I seem to remeber a Modified race in Conn. a week before that had a similar incident near the end.....Hmmm

Turn2Guru, transponders kept track of the cars for 99 laps, why not the last one? That make all 100 laps equal, as opposed to the advantage one might gain if their car were involved in a minor altercation late in the race, with a resulting fender or nose piece sticking out further than originally intended in the design of the car. Transponders don't recognize that, just a signal from the same point on the car, lap after lap, all race long. Sounds fair when put that way, don't you agree?

And yes, Fred, how about that guy in the 08, some good strategy, combined with a little luck, some good driving, and look what it can do. ;)
Sitting here trying to remember a driver name Kelia, and enjoying all your comments... :cheers:

mafap
10-23-2006, 07:51 PM
Never took anything personal, just rebutting your statements that I believe to be incorrect (my opinion), as well pointed out a few facts that you were wrong about......... never questioned your credentials, so don't assume you know mine, because that is just one more thing you're wrong about here today.

DriveitinDeep
10-23-2006, 07:54 PM
it's Kleila

DriveitinDeep
10-23-2006, 07:56 PM
what a freaking pissing contest. Let it drop!

LongIslandJam
10-23-2006, 07:57 PM
Just as an FYI: transponders are recommended by AMB to be placed behind the rear axle. Stafford, Wall, and Mountain are just a few of many tracks that use transponders in this fashion.

richardpetey
10-23-2006, 08:22 PM
Oh! Those pesky transponders, I whacked mine so hard I thought it would register 100 laps or go tilt , too bad it was the latter, hehe................ :eek:
Congrats to all the LM guys, they put on a great show........................ :cool:
The second best race I've seen this year, hehe........................... :cheers:
UNCLE PETEY.................... :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:
Thanks for that yellow tape WJ, I needed every inch of it.................. :help:

outlawfab
10-23-2006, 10:45 PM
I believe that the car which physically crosses the finish line first should get the credit. To be fair, the transponder should be mounted by a track official in a manner that would be equal to all cars. If it means a measurement from the front bumper, so be it. In a horse race, if you win by a nose, you win, it isn't who won by the hind quater. I thought the race went pretty good and there are judgement calls made, but remember hindsight is 20/20. No complaints here, but if the pics and video show one car in front of the other, but the transponder says elsewise, the video or pic should over ride the transponder. I enjoyed the race and wish the series well. Brian Schwarz

kleilamotorsports
10-23-2006, 11:59 PM
OK what do I have to do with this bull C---????????????

hollywoodmic
10-24-2006, 12:54 PM
I wasn't there but I have to agree with Brian. What you guys are saying is if they were running for the lead and the 7a won by a nose and the transponder says the rear of the car came across the line 2nd, the 7a would not win???

W. J.
10-24-2006, 01:09 PM
I wasn't there but I have to agree with Brian. What you guys are saying is if they were running for the lead and the 7a won by a nose and the transponder says the rear of the car came across the line 2nd, the 7a would not win???
The transponder scores all the laps of the race, even the last one. Some changes to that may need to be made, and will be discussed, but that's the rule as it existed on Sunday.

Golf Guy
10-24-2006, 03:00 PM
I was not there either, but I cannot remember a race where the nose of the car crossed the finish line before another car and was scored behind it? I guess that would do away with the photo finish?

RGeeProductions
10-24-2006, 05:44 PM
OK, MY OPINION:
If a track uses transponders and there is an exact placement rule for the division, then, when you take the green flag, your scoring does not start till the transponder crosses the wire. In turn, when the last lap is taken, it SHOULD be when the transponder crosses the line also. Why change scoring for finish. If there is a vague front nose rule, one guys could be 3ft from front spindle and another's 4ft from front spindle, just as an example. Now I don't know if there is a rule on this placement of nosepiece, but the constant would be the transponder location in a frame and suspension that IS by the rules. Again this is a constant among cars and I believe fair.

Turn2Guru
10-24-2006, 08:03 PM
Two cars side by side out of turn four for the win. They touch and one car spins, the rear of the spinning car crosses the transponder loop before the other cars does but he stops before hitting the finish line. The car he was involved with crosses the line straight. The transponder loop is 132" or 11' before the start finish line, so this is a very possible deal. Who is the winner?
Also, when the transponder brackets were handed out, the teams were told to mount them 24" behind the rear axle. Now if the transponder loop is 132" before the start/ finish line, on a 105" wheelbase car, it is being scored 3" before it reaches the stripe if your excluding the nose and going off the center of the front hub. 105 + 24 = 129. So only 108" wheelbase cars are scored right with the transponder 24" behind the rear axle. If you mounted the transponder 132" from the tip of the nose piece, all cars will be scored as soon as the nose of their car hits the stripe and wheel base or body style would not be a factor. Just a thought...

The Bullfather
10-24-2006, 08:09 PM
Wow technical are we?

I thought too the 7a beat out Mike Coll. I was suprised when I got home to read he fished 3rd behind Coll. I understand about the rules, we are used to seeing in most racing organzations! This might be something to fix at the next race. I also noticed the length of the nose of the 7a it had a different slope to it. It did look longer then all the other car out there, but again with different make and models, I guess that why they go with the transponders.

outlawfab
10-24-2006, 08:24 PM
That's where there is a problem, when you place it according to the spindle. A Camaro body is different than a Charger or a Grand Prix, so the bumper placement is also different. The only fair measurement would be from the front of the car. At least we have a couple of months to discuss some of what's good, what can be tweaked, for the betterment of the series. Let's not gripe about it and try to help. Like I said before, I enjoyed the race and wish only the best in the future. Brian Schwarz

Jeff T
10-24-2006, 09:34 PM
I like that idea! If you make it an inspection spec where the transponder mounting point is located "X" amount of inches from the front of the vehicle prior to the start of the race. If the transponder does not meet that criteria, the car fails inspection. (This also needs to be a permanent mounting point, no zip tie mounting like I saw this weekend.) The next question is, where do you mount it? Under the hood on the chassis by the firewall? On the dash board? All of these things would have to be looked into (electrical interference from ignition boxes, distributors, spark plug wires, etc.).

The Bullfather
10-24-2006, 09:58 PM
Question is if it up front, Drivers like to use their bumpers, wrecks transponders, what then if you bump someone or wreck and continue? Has to be in a safe area.

Turn2Guru
10-25-2006, 08:31 AM
If the transponders were placed 24" behind the rear axel, and you now measure 132" off the nose it should place the transponder about 12"-18" in front of the rear axle. Probably a safer spot than behind the rear axle. Also since you have to purchase the transponder bracket, riveting it into place is possible; however, if you run different tracks in this division, and they use different style transponders, using the same location would not be practical. I am not opposed to the wire tie application; set up a tech area you drive through after going over the scales, let the tech officials place a sticker on the chassis were the transponder is supposed to be placed on each car. If transponder is not there after the race, you're DQ'ed. Now everyone should be scored just as the nose of the car touches the stripe.

W. J.
10-25-2006, 10:54 AM
Okay, here's the deal. The transponder placement is dictated by where the scoring loop is located on a given track. With a traveling series like this, the loop may not always be the same distance from the line, so the placement of the transponder on the car will be dictated by the location of a particular track's scoring loop. That means changeable mounting of the transponder, so no permanent mounting bracket can be mandated. Measuring back from the leading edge of the front of the car is the best idea, since that will ensure that all transponders will be in the same position for scoring purposes. Obviously, certain instances of cars crossing the line backwards or sideways will require a sub rule stating that, "a visual decision by a race official overrides the transponder" in that rare case where a car trips the transponder, but does not cross the line ahead of another car.
We are really appreciative of the suggestions offered here, and we are in the process of studying ways to make the scoring as fair as it can possibly be. The above information is the groundwork for the future of any rules written for this process, and we encourage you to suggest any refinements you can think of. We have plenty of time before anything needs to be set in stone.
Thanks again to all who have made any sensible contributions to this discussion.

Turn2Guru
10-25-2006, 11:42 AM
WJ, I couldn't have said it better myself. LOL. ;)

richardpetey
10-26-2006, 08:01 PM
Since we are in the suggestion mode, I didn't see any NELMA race write-up in the AARN this week............................. :confused:
If your trying to hawk a fledgling LM series in the tri-state area your gonna need a little press......................... :help:
Its not like it wasn't an exciting race, hehe................... :rolleyes:
UNCLE PETEY........................ :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

LongIslandJam
10-26-2006, 08:09 PM
Our story was submitted to the AARN and the AARN was invited to our race. I guess they ignored us:( No fear, by the end of next year, they won't stop talking about us;)

W. J.
10-26-2006, 09:03 PM
Turn2Guru (and everyone else): I should have responded to this sooner, but I want everyone to know that what I said was a mix of all the suggestions we've gotten, both publicly on here, and through PM's and emails from concerned fans and drivers. This is how it should work, with input from all sides; so while I appreciate the compliment, I am not going to take the full credit, as my statement was based on all that input. It may be refined further after the boss goes over it all, but we thank YOU ALL for your help in letting us know what you think is good (or bad), so that it only gets better as time goes by. :)