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View Full Version : TBax Outside the Wall. The 1st 50 Laps.



Teds Race Tours
05-10-2007, 01:58 PM
Ok, Ok, this has been discussed ad nauseum, and I don’t think this topic is going to go away any time soon. There’s a pretty big line drawn in the sand on this one. If you are on a team, either as owner, crew member, driver, or sponsor, it seems that you hate the format, and want it to go away. If you are a fan of the sport, you are tickled pink to get more value from your money. What will happen? Who knows, but I’d like to speak out a little here, so here’s my point of view.

So many teams hate the format. So many teams prefer the time trials and 150 lap races that have become common in our wonderful world of Modifieds. Let’s not forget about our wonderful history of modified racing. Back in the 70’s and 80’s (Fitch or Howie will have to write a piece if you want something from the 50’s and 60’s, cuz I ain’t that old. ) We had a ton of short races, and just a few long distance races. Stafford had 30 lappers every week, with a weekly field of quality cars to rival the competition on the Tour of today. Stafford’s big race, the Sizzler, was 80 laps. Thompson’s big race was the 300, and man do I miss that event, but that’s a different piece, for a different time. Thompson’s other big events of the era were 40 lappers for the World Series. 75 Lappers for the Icebreaker, and a mix of other distances for Pole Qualifiers and Outside Pole Qualifiers for the 300. All these races included Heats, Consis and Features. Back then, most of the longer races were in the fall. The unofficial triple crown of Modified racing all were in September. You had the Bud 200 at Oswego, The Thompson 300, and The Race of Champions. These were the Grandest races of the day, as they were nothing like the other races all year. 34-54 cars started. Pit stops were the order of the day, and fans got to see something different. If fact, if you look at the 85-87 seasons on the Tour, the only 200 lap races before late August were the early season races at Martinsville. The rest were of a shorter variety. A little Variety is good.

Now, the drivers who prefer the TT and 150’s to the Flash Races, lets examine what we have here. In today’s world, for arguments sake, I’ll compare a 150 lap TT race at Wall to a Flash Type race at Wall. In the 150 lapper, yes, you would have had no Heats, so that makes you happy. In the Flash Race, you would have had 100 laps of racing as opposed to 150 in the Regular format. You know what, after all the Cautions on Sunday, did you really want another 50 laps of potential carnage. And don’t hide behind the fact that Caution Laps would have counted, because then we would have potentially had a 150 lap race, with 25 laps of green. You should be glad the format was what it was, because a 150 lap race with 25 green flag laps would have set the Mods back to the stone age. Fans would have gone ballistic. It’s the Drivers responsibility to put on a good show. The drivers do need to realize if they are on a tight race track, there needs to be a little, ok, a LOT of Give and Take. Something that obviously wasn’t in great supply this past weekend. No matter what the Format, if you guys can only go 3 laps between cautions, it is going to cost money to fix the cars. You can gripe about heats, You can Gripe about purses, but if you really wanted to make Modified racing more affordable, stop running into each other. There’s an idea. The track isn’t causing wrecks. The Purse isn’t causing wrecks. I am pretty sure that 100 % of the wrecks, was caused by some driver or another. We still admire and respect you guys as much as any drivers in the world, and there’s nothing we’d rather do on a sunny weekend day that watch you drive around in circles, but please stop making that yellow flag wave. It really puts a damper on our fun.

OK, now that I have your attention, I will go over why the flash format works, and what needs to be changed about it for it to succeed. The Flash Format really works. It does. Here is what the teams need to do to accept it. Don’t think of the Heats, as well, heats. Just think of them as the 1st 50 laps of the feature. Yeah, but the Heats Don’t pay Money. Ya know what, the 1st 50 laps of a 100 lap feature doesn’t pay a nickle either. You race the 1st 50 laps to get to the last 50 laps. You wreck on lap 25 of the race, you don’t get to see laps 51-100, or 150 or whatever the length of the race is. The 1st 50 laps of a Flash event is VERY important. Every car you do pass, is 2 cars you don’t have to pass in the feature. That does not mean go wild like a bull in a china shop. Some drivers will chose to do that, and because some drivers choose to do that, many other drivers who are patient, can pick up numerous spots. Yes, you might get caught up in somebody else’s wreck, but that can happen in the final 50 laps too. They do need to structure the purse so that everybody who shows up and RACES gets at least enough to cover a set of tires, and not just the cars that qualify for the final 50 laps.

What I do not like is the way they line up the drivers for the 1st 50 laps(see, I ain’t calling them heats) The regular drivers on the Tour have way too much of an advantage in getting the top 10 spots in each race. Either pick out of a hat for everything, or use Time Trials(Yes, I Said Time Trials) to line up the heat, er, 1st 50 Laps. When the Tour Comes to Riverhead per se, Bill Park, Chuck Steuer, JR Bertuccio, Wayne Anderson and the Gang are at a distinct disadvantage, having to start in the back. Don’t get me wrong, the thought of my Long Island favorites coming up through the field makes my blood race. There is no bigger fan of Mike Ewanitsko than I am, but whenever he started on the pole at Riverhead, I was always disappointed. I wanted to see some passing. I wanted to see Mike, or anybody go from the back going to the front, and make it look easy. So if that happens at Riverhead, and one of the Locals comes from the back to the front, it will be one of the best races ever at the Head, Tour, or otherwise. But it really isn’t fair to them. Now before somebody starts screaming on the message boards, this is a TOUR RACE, why shouldn’t the Regulars get that perk. Here’s why. They are the best Modified drivers in the World, they don’t need it. The Best Driver on a given night should win that nights race. If Juan Pablo Montoya wants to strap himself in at Riverhead, why shouldn’t he have the same equal opportunity as every other driver in the field. I guess the only fair thing to all drivers is to use Time Trials to line up the 1st 50 Laps. This way the faster cars are together, the slower cars are together, and maybe with this formula, and a little luck and patience from the drivers, the Flash Format will be a big success.

One other thing that I would change is the amount of cars starting the feature. You don’t need 31 cars on the track at Wall. 24 would have been fine. Take the top 10 from each 1st 50 lapper, and 4 provisionals, or better yet, GET RID of those provisionals in the flash races and just take the top 12 from each 50 lapper. Cars that finish 13th or worse would be scored 25th on back in the final standings for the day, earning points and money. Everbody gets points, because everybody raced. No need to have that many cars on the track, and lets face it, the likely hood of someone starting 25th or worse not named Blewett at Wall getting anywhere’s near the front of the pack was small at best. Less cars will equal less cautions. Less cautions equal less damage. Less Cautions and Damage make EVERYBODY happy. Fans, Car Owners, Drivers, EVERYBODY.

Drivers, Car Owners, Sponsors, etc, I know this isn’t very popular with you right now. It’s only 3 races this year, and really the Wall event is a hard one to measure by. You need to look at all 3 races this year as a whole, and even that may not supply enough data on whether it’s been a success or not. To compare, it would be GREAT if we could get one of these Flash events at Stafford, or Thompson, or IMAGINE one at NHIS. How many people would attend a 1 day event at NHIS with Heats, Ok I said Heats, Consi’s and Feature? The Track could afford to put a full purse up for that one, and who would possibly complain? Sounds like a MONEY MAKER.

Continued below.

Teds Race Tours
05-10-2007, 05:25 PM
Continued from above.

No, we are not going to all agree on this one. There are as many opinions as there are people. Not everybody is going to be happy. If Tony Hirschman, or anybody else wants to skip a Flash event, that is their choice. It really only hurts them in the standings. You look at the 1st 3 years of the Tour, and only a handful of drivers raced in every event. Drivers skipping Riverhead for instance over the years was fairly common, unless they were high in the points, and had to come. If 1, or 2, or 5 drivers want to skip an event because of the qualifying procedure or reduced purse, the Tour will live. Nascar is trying something here. It may not be popular, but unless you want a Tour of 10-12 Races, mostly in Connecticut, it’s something you are just going to have to accept. How many tracks that once ran a Tour event, and are still open, do not have Tour events scheduled in 2007. Lee, Star, Seekonk, Holland, IRP, Richmond, Waterford, Erie, Jennerstown, Spencer, Adirondack, Oxford Plains, Beech Ridge, Monadnock, South Boston, Orange County, and Chemung. You could make a pretty good Tour on those tracks alone, and I’m pretty sure I forgot some too. Without the Flash Events, you would have added Riverhead and Wall to that list too. Maybe we need to try and schedule some COMBO FLASH WEEKENDS. Friday at Lake Erie, Saturday at Jennerstown. Saturday at South Boston, Sunday at Hickory. Friday Lee, Saturday All Star. Something where you could get 2 races in for the price of 1 weekends fuel and hotel. I am not always a big supporter of Nascar’s decisions, but I really think they are trying this to keep some of the borderline tracks on the Tour.


Now I am sure many of you are going to disagree with everything I say, and well, that’s your choice. I’ll still be happy to sit with you at the next event, and watch the Greatest Racing in the World, The NASCAR MODIFIEDS!!! See ya Outside the Wall!!!

Tooner
05-10-2007, 06:49 PM
Quote: "Yeah, but the Heats Donít pay Money."

Just so you know Tbax,

The heats did have a $5,300 purse split between the two heat races. I do not know if that included the $600 pole award which was split between the two heat winners.

Nice thoughts on the format though, and I respect your opinions as someone who spends his hard earned money to support the tour.

And has a big green bus :)

Tooner

RGeeProductions
05-10-2007, 07:15 PM
Hey Ted.
I thought you would be writing an OCCASIONAL feature.
WAHHH HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL

Teds Race Tours
05-10-2007, 07:43 PM
Consider this the 1st occaision. :)

Teds Race Tours
05-10-2007, 07:49 PM
Quote: "Yeah, but the Heats Donít pay Money."

Just so you know Tbax,

The heats did have a $5,300 purse split between the two heat races. I do not know if that included the $600 pole award which was split between the two heat winners.

Nice thoughts on the format though, and I respect your opinions as someone who spends his hard earned money to support the tour.

And has a big green bus :)

Tooner

Tooner. Yes, I was aware of a Heat Race Payout on this one. Do you have any idea what the non qualified cars took home?

ThE sHaDoW
05-10-2007, 08:22 PM
What I do not like is the way they line up the drivers for the 1st 50 laps(see, I ainít calling them heats) The regular drivers on the Tour have way too much of an advantage in getting the top 10 spots in each race. Either pick out of a hat for everything, or use Time Trials(Yes, I Said Time Trials) to line up the heat, er, 1st 50 Laps. When the Tour Comes to Riverhead per se, Bill Park, Chuck Steuer, JR Bertuccio, Wayne Anderson and the Gang are at a distinct disadvantage, having to start in the back. Donít get me wrong, the thought of my Long Island favorites coming up through the field makes my blood race. There is no bigger fan of Mike Ewanitsko than I am, but whenever he started on the pole at Riverhead, I was always disappointed. I wanted to see some passing. I wanted to see Mike, or anybody go from the back going to the front, and make it look easy. So if that happens at Riverhead, and one of the Locals comes from the back to the front, it will be one of the best races ever at the Head, Tour, or otherwise. But it really isnít fair to them. Now before somebody starts screaming on the message boards, this is a TOUR RACE, why shouldnít the Regulars get that perk. Hereís why. They are the best Modified drivers in the World, they donít need it. The Best Driver on a given night should win that nights race. If Juan Pablo Montoya wants to strap himself in at Riverhead, why shouldnít he have the same equal opportunity as every other driver in the field. I guess the only fair thing to all drivers is to use Time Trials to line up the 1st 50 Laps. This way the faster cars are together, the slower cars are together, and maybe with this formula, and a little luck and patience from the drivers, the Flash Format will be a big success.

Sorry Ted, you and I ain't never gonna agree on this one. You want the perks of starting up front, pay the dues that all the tour regulars do by running the complete season. Should a tour regular be allowed to go to Riverhead on an off night and start up front? hmmm, somehow I think that answer is NO!

Teds Race Tours
05-11-2007, 03:43 AM
Shadow.

We don't have to agree. I can see your side on this issue. I just want you to see mine. They are paying the same dues for that particular race, and should be granted the same chance of winning, which if you have to start behind every car in the top 20, they clearly don't have the same opportunity. Yes, being on the Tour Full time should count for something, but I just don't believe that this is 100 % fair.

We'd love to see some of the Tour Regulars come run Riverhead on an off week from the Tour. They have several Time Trial events, including July 21st for the TB Memorial, which would be a great practice session for the Tour Events on August 4th.:)

WillyKJr
05-11-2007, 11:20 AM
Good stuff TBax. I applaud you for sticking those thoughts out there for the community to scrutinize :)

I'm still struggling with the we're not making enough money to run heats thing but that's okay. I'd like to know if a Modified team has actually MADE money going racing since the inception of the Tour. If so, what year of the 80's was the last team to do so. If the teams are not making money anyway then the cost of running heats is really a non-issue. It's really about how much more money are we going to loose just to do something that makes no financial sense in the first place. 10 hammer blows to the head or just 8. What's the difference you're still going to the hospital when it's over.

Would higher purses, paid heats, tow money for non-qualifiers be nice? Of course it would but most teams would just spend more and still be in the hole 100 grand anyway. JMHO.

They do it purely because they want to so it is up to the teams to figure out how to make it work. Going broke or going racing. Hirschmann made his decision at Wall. Good enough. Next.

Tooner
05-11-2007, 01:05 PM
I spoke about this years ago on "another" board, but I will state it again.

In early 1991 the teams and NASCAR held a meeting, which I attended in place of our car owner. A driver and car owner from each of the top 20 teams from the 1990 points were present. NASCAR said then, and I might be parapharasing "We want you guys to have 18-20 races a year for 20 grand to win each race, with $100,000 purses."


Still waiting.....

Tooner

Teds Race Tours
05-11-2007, 01:40 PM
Tooner, I am sure they are just putting the finishing pieces on the plan. :)


Here is a little more on the Flash Race Idea.:)



http://www.racerhub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11627

Tooner
05-11-2007, 02:30 PM
HAhahahah, great job on the fictional conversation Tbax, I needed to laugh right about now, been a busy day.
Great job!

Mike er, I mean Tooner :)

M T Pockets
05-12-2007, 09:31 PM
To those of you who thought the racing was great, you should be season ticket holders to your area Demolition Derby facility:mad:

Since we took the hit on the purse etc. were the admission prices reduced to reflect this. If so where were all the fans? If not, where were all those heat race fans :confused:

You are all hard working people, will you still go to work if your boss tells you you are going to get half your pay this week! I don't think so.:lol:

Which one of you smart guy's can I send my repair bills to to pay? Better yet, how many of you are willing to come to work at the shop and repair the car?:help:

We don't need this kind of format and carnige for the sake of adding a few races to the schedule. If this is what you want to experiment with, than make them non-point races. Remember, we are one of NASCAR'S Touring Divisions, the best of the best at what we do. 50 lap heat races and a 50 lap feature have no place being in the Tour's schedule.

Well I'm done beating this horse so let me move on to my idea to replace the above. My proposal is: we will go to any NWM suitable facility within let's say a three hour drive that we have not been to, and race a 75 lap no point exibition race for $0 that's right for FREE provided the track book a second race at the normal purse. The race track doesn't raise their admission for the first race and gives away through promotions a couple of thousand tickets to fan and non fans. Remember those seats would of been empty anyway. For that matter maybe 3000 of them. Results:
The beginning of a new fan base. We know they will see the best racing they have ever seen. Those free tickets, for starters they help increase the revenue of the consessions stands. Just maybe we can help ourselves grow out of stagnation and keep ourselves from becoming extinct.

Now you pick what's better for modified racing. Trying to expand our fan base or go race a tracks that modifieds already race at and destroy equipment and risk injury for the sake of format. The next thing some fool will suggest is we flash race at NHIS.

Teds Race Tours
05-13-2007, 12:19 AM
A couple of points I'd like to respond with. You make a reference to an employee and a boss? Exactly how may people associated with the Tour make they're living on the Tour. How many's full time job is racing, crewing, or being a team owner? The whole BOSS thing doesn't really apply here, but since you brought it up, the BOSS is generally the person who pays the workers, and in this case, that would be the paying fans, who as you say, work hard for their money, and just want a fair value in return.

I have a few facts for you. in 2006, there were 113 caution flags thrown. You know what? Not a single one of those cautions were from a heat race. Somehow 29.99% of the laps (698-2327) in 2006 were run under caution. 3 out of every 10 laps were run under caution. Were heat races to blame for this? As with Willy's point above, I'd venture to say that not one team made more money in 2006 than it spent. No Team Owner is doing this as a job. Making money is a thing of the past. The distant past. Ironically the last team that Made a semi decent amount of money over a full season, probably qualified for most of their races by running heats.


Your last Paragraph Reads. "Now you pick what's better for modified racing. Trying to expand our fan base or go race a tracks that modifieds already race at and destroy equipment and risk injury for the sake of format. The next thing some fool will suggest is we flash race at NHIS."

Destroying equipment is usually a product of driver error or parts malfunction. A Heat Race never CAUSED an accident.

Also, since I already suggested that a Flash Race at NHIS would be the Best Place for a Flash Race, I guess you might be insinuating that I am a fool. Since I believe that 20,000-30,000 other fools would attend such an event, I guess I'd be in some pretty good company.

M T Pockets
05-13-2007, 10:52 AM
TBax,
I don't read every post and I didn't read you suggestion so it's pointless to discuss this any further because no matter what I say YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!:disgusted

By the way, contrary to what you think, owners do operate their racing as a business and drivers do depend on racing as part of their income. Keep in mind, without the owners and drivers there is no Tour and yes, we can still go racing. The Wall experience should, after what I heard said after the Flash Distruction Exibition unify the owners. If it doesn't, than I guess you could say we are the fools. Until you've worn the shoes don't tell what path to take.:cheers:

uticamike
05-13-2007, 10:08 PM
Is the ROC format of 12-15 lap heats and/or consi and 75-125 Green laps
unworkable on the WMT? If so why?

chrome horn
05-14-2007, 10:15 PM
Ok, I've thought about this and now I think it's time to reply. I think there have been alot of valid points brought up on here and MSS. My overall opinion is that the flash race is not a great idea.

I was there and saw the carnage. I was also at the 10 team garage and was there when Gary opened his check from NASCAR. It just doesn't seem right. Here a race car is sitting that needs work and the check barely covered the cost of tires. It sad. I'm not saying I'm against heats, just not 50 lappers at a track like Wall.

Tbax, you said heat races don't cause cautions. You're right they don't cause them but they definately breed them. And not to mention, what racing in the world has 50 lap heats? Also, Tbax if you have to charge $50.00 per person and the passengers say ahhh we'll only pay $25.00 can you still run a profitable trip? Ted I love ya like a brother, SO PLEASE DON"T TAKE THIS AS AN ATTACK. I'm all for change. I enjoy things that improve situations ie. the old tire wars. I strongly believe that this flash race was several steps backwards, not forward.

I believe the ROC and True VAlue have good things going. It gives fans that option to see heat races. Does that make them better then the WMT or vise versa? NO. Life is about choices, you can choose what races you want to see.

A lot of the car owners started out at local tracks. They been through the heat race deals. If they wanted to continue that way, chances are they would have stayed racing at their respective bullrings or would race True Value or ROC. They wanted the challenge of two laps to make the show and run a feature longer than the traditional Friday/ Saturday night 40 lapper.

Sorry to get on my soap box and blabber, but I wanted to state my feelings on it. Do I think that the flash race could work? yes, but with some major tweaking. And as for them at Loudon, the fan base would be the same because the people that go to Loudon are there for the weekend so I don't believe flash races or time trials make a difference there. Just my opinion.

Teds Race Tours
05-15-2007, 11:29 AM
I gotta argue a few points with ya Fran.:angel:

Was it the Flash Concept that "breed" the Cautions, or the Track Itself. Wall has always been a one groove track, and I'd venture to say no matter what the Racing Concept, there would have been "DAMAGE"

Same Concept. Different Track, I bet you have MUCH BETTER RESULTS. I'm betting the next 2 Flash races are much easier on the eyes, and on the pockets books of the owners.

The Hampton Jitney comparision isn't really a good one. The ferry is about $50 each way, plus you still have to drive, pay for gas, etc, so $45-50 total, well, ya just can't beat it. :) We could charge more, and still be the much cheaper alternative.

Fran, I love you like a sister, and You can say whatever you like, just stop beating me at Hockey, baseball etc.:)

See ya at the TB Golf Outing.:cheers: