Does the penalty fit the crime

[fan28]

In my opinion NASCAR went too far this weekend in penalizing James Civali and the 28 team. Placing James in last place in the race is the most severe penalty ever assessed by NASCAR for rough riding on the modified tour. Together with the purse and loss in point fund money NASCAR has penalized the 28 team around $15,000.00. Ed Cox made the call immediately after the checked flag flew. Should a penalty this severe be made at the spur of the moment? Was it necessary to act before reviewing the consequences? I think NASCAR owes it to the owners and drivers to use every effort to make a fair decision. The race was over. Shouldn't Ed Cox have spoken to the drivers involved, checked to see if video tape of the incident was available, talked with other officials to get their opinion? Maybe Ed Flemke was angry at the way James drove him and brake checked him or maybe Flemke got loose, I doubt it, but it's possible. Reviewing the tape could show it either way. NASCAR was quick to use tapes and pictures to review the finish at NHIS to reverse James first win, as they should have. Why should this be any different? I am not trying to say we need instant replay or review judgement calls made during a race. This race was finished and the penalty was the most severe given for this type of infraction. Doesn't the 28 Team, or any team for that matter, deserve the time it takes to review a situation before harsh penalties are issued? James has raced full time on the Whelen Modified Tour for two years. He has never been put down a lap for rough riding or anything for that matter. He has never been put on probation and he has been black flagged once for rough riding before this weekend. James was racing the last two laps of the season to try to maintain third in points and possible move up to second. He came from the back of the pack to the front twice without touching a car. He was never warned for being over aggressive in the first 148 laps. Did he block and get into the 10 car with less then two laps to go? Yes he did, but I don't think the penalty fits the crime. The loss in point fund money for the 28 Team comes to about 25% of this years total money won. If this was Nextel Cup that would be about a 2.5million dollar fine. Hardly fair to one of the most loyal teams on the Whelen Modified Tour.

[WMT10]

Just making a general statement...
One should ask James ( and I am reiterating your quote) "was it necessary to act before reviewing (contemplating) the cosequences?"
Maybe NASCAR should have been on top of their game a little better when penalizing this year. A majority of people know too many of the drivers antics on the track were overseen / overlooked this year.
In saying that maybe this penalty would not have felt so harsh.

[W. J.]

Bigger penalties need to be assessed if the message is to be delivered that NASCAR won't put up with such nonsense. It's sad for James and his team that they are the first, and therefore the example, but it has to start somewhere. Let's hope that ALL learn from the experience.

Now maybe NASCAR needs to think about a $2.5 million penalty at the Cup level to bring those guys back to their senses. Their more recent penalties amount to pocket change for most Cup teams.

All J/M/P/O

[Kevin]

The penalty may not fit the crime, but it may fit the criminal. I wasn't at Thompson, but I was at Stafford when he "did" Dave Dion in the Busch car. Just an educated guess, the only thing that kept James from coming unglued as much or as bad is Don King. As far as what did happen at Thompson and my not being there, I heard what happened from an unbiased 88 crew memeber who was watching from the infield.
My opinion and not to start anything with rabbit or anyone else, but after seeing what he did at Stafford to Dion, I don't think the kid deserves a CT drivers license never mind a NASCAR license until he can control himself mentaly. He may be "a good kid" but that doesn't have anything to do with self control behind the wheel. He gave Don his first tour win, and I'm happy for the Kings and crew about that. They are class people, at the track and away from it. But it's decisions like the one James made Sunday that can ruin the future of a young driver, no matter how talented.
As far as the money the penalty cost Don, how about the wrecked blue car? And how about what it cost Billy Pauch Jr. and Dick Greenfield?

[gomodsgo]

Being on the side of "making calls" I firmly believe that racing is a split second decision making sport. No instant reply, no videos, no asking drivers hours, days or weeks after it all happen. Any track or series hires people in positions that they feel can and will make those calls and the higher ups NEED to support the decisions that those officials make. No reason to go ask the driver if he did it on purpose or listen to another driver say well, I think I might have been at fault.

IF anyone is going to have control of a track or series, you need to have HUGE penalties as to make an example for everyone to know you mean business. It sucks for that team that gets those penalties, but let me tell you, the other teams see that and think twice about doing anything wrong.

I totally agree 100% that in that second of that event at Thompson, the call was correct. On the other side of the coin, I totally disagree with the MRS call at Seekonk to move two cars back AFTER the race was done, and said teams didn't know till the TEAMS called to ask about the posted finish on-line.

The penalty fits.

[Sicklajoie]

What's the phrase that Sherriff Buford T. Justice used??
"That's an ATTENTION getter."

[M T Pockets]

I'll be brief. How much in dollars did the 28 cost the 10 the fourth time he put the 10 out this year and how many points did it cost the 10. Perhaps the 10 might have finished in the top five?
As for the penalty:
I was traveling with a friend of mine when he was stopped for speeding. As he tried to plea his case the trooper replied "Remember how many times you weren't stopped" and we are all guilty of this on the highway. Not much different in this case. Sooner or later you pay the piper.

[ThE sHaDoW]

NASCAR has been saying at the drives meetings for weeks now that they are growing tired of the BS going on during races. It is possible this was the straw that broke the camels back? He was warned 2 laps from the finish "tell the 28 we don't race like that" and "he's lucky that car didn't spin out". Those may not be exact quotes over the NASCAR radio, but they are damn close. I missed the incident that caused the lap 148 warning, but I moved my attention to their battle to make sure we didn't get collected if there was anything else to occur. I think the penalty is very harsh, and that's all I'll say. Does he deserve it, not my call. The first penalty call was put the 28 one lap down, then it was quickly changed to last. How quick, the radio was never clicked off between statements.

[Fkraft99]

just curious if factored into that $15,000 was the purse money and the damage done to the 88 car that got collected in the 28 spinning the 10?

James is a great guy, and great driver. But he needs to drive with his head a little more.

[Rabbit504]

I'll be brief. How much in dollars did the 28 cost the 10 the fourth time he put the 10 out this year and how many points did it cost the 10. Perhaps the 10 might have finished in the top five?
As for the penalty:
I was traveling with a friend of mine when he was stopped for speeding. As he tried to plea his case the trooper replied "Remember how many times you weren't stopped" and we are all guilty of this on the highway. Not much different in this case. Sooner or later you pay the piper.

Are you Kidding?
Edward is an angel right?
How many cars has he gotten into this year?
The fact is when you junk someone running 18th not to many people notice.
Top five in points?
Your in a dream world.
I'm not sure but I think Edward's next win in the 10 will be his first.
Some drivers own up to a mistake, Like the defending champ did Sunday.
Some drivers NEVER made a mistake.
Just ask them they will tell you.
James said he hit Edward, He also said Edward brake checked him.

Now ask your driver that Mr owner

[M T Pockets]

Are you Kidding?
Edward is an angel right?
How many cars has he gotten into this year?
The fact is when you junk someone running 18th not to many people notice.
Top five in points?
Your in a dream world.
I'm not sure but I think Edward's next win in the 10 will be his first.
Some drivers own up to a mistake, Like the defending champ did Sunday.
Some drivers NEVER made a mistake.
Just ask them they will tell you.
James said he hit Edward, He also said Edward brake checked him.

Now ask your driver that Mr owner

Hey Bugg's:
Your fan loyality is admirable. If you seek the truth seek the facts in all that you do or present them as your opnion. Our dialog on the subject is now over so go get some sleep.:wave:

[Rabbit504]

The penalty may not fit the crime, but it may fit the criminal. I wasn't at Thompson, but I was at Stafford when he "did" Dave Dion in the Busch car. Just an educated guess, the only thing that kept James from coming unglued as much or as bad is Don King. As far as what did happen at Thompson and my not being there, I heard what happened from an unbiased 88 crew memeber who was watching from the infield.
My opinion and not to start anything with rabbit or anyone else, but after seeing what he did at Stafford to Dion, I don't think the kid deserves a CT drivers license never mind a NASCAR license until he can control himself mentaly. He may be "a good kid" but that doesn't have anything to do with self control behind the wheel. He gave Don his first tour win, and I'm happy for the Kings and crew about that. They are class people, at the track and away from it. But it's decisions like the one James made Sunday that can ruin the future of a young driver, no matter how talented.
As far as the money the penalty cost Don, how about the wrecked blue car? And how about what it cost Billy Pauch Jr. and Dick Greenfield?

To Bring up something that happened YEARS ago is not right.
And you not being there is worse.
There was only one crew member that hasn't been with James all year that helped on the 88 and that was one of Doug's guys.
He has other reason's for trying to make James look bad.
James openly admits when he is in the wrong, but most of the internet geeks would never know that.
If you didn't want to start anything you shouldn't believe hearsay, AND post about how bad or wrong someone is on that hearsay

[hollywoodmic]

James has never been put down for rough riding???? I guess fan28 missed the race at NHIS when Ronnie Yuhas was running 2nd and for some reason on lap 3 James felt the need to dive underneath him and drive right through him. You are at NHIS traveling at extremely high speed, a little patience & respect for the other competitors could have gone a long way in that situation. I believe the big boys from NASCAR said to hold him on pit road, they may not have put him down a lap, but they did put him to last.

At Thompson if Ed Cox indeed came over the radio as Shadow said, well then James at that point is just showing up the race director. So the race director gave it back to him. He blatantly ignored the warning and took a frustrating matter into his own hands. How did he make out?? I believe James is a huge talent but as Freddie said, sometimes he just doesn't use the best judgement. I am sorry for Mr. King and the entire team that they couldn't reign him in for 1 more corner. I say bring Coby back.

[TnLRacing]

just curious if factored into that $15,000 was the purse money and the damage done to the 88 car that got collected in the 28 spinning the 10?

James is a great guy, and great driver. But he needs to drive with his head a little more.


Or maybe what he needs is the services of a super spotter such as yourself!:D :cheers:

[SteveS]

I saw James tag Eddie twice prior to taking him out on the third shot all during the closing laps. After being warned and then going on to take him out he deserves a harsh penalty. He deserves an even harsher penalty considering what he did to Dion in the Busch car that could have been a serious/life threatening injury. James obviously suffers from road rage/anger management issues. If Eddie did something he didn't like, maybe a nudge is called for and then deal with it face to face, out of the car like a man. I'm not an Eddie fan by any stretch and I think at times he has the widest bumper on the track but he clearly was taken out the last two (Thompson) races for no good reason. You can't tolerate the actions that Civali demonstrated because at some point another driver is going to get killed by that stuff and none of us want that. If I was Ed Cox, I'd tell him in no uncertain terms, that another transgression like that would earn him a full season suspension.

[Rabbit504]

I saw James tag Eddie twice prior to taking him out on the third shot all during the closing laps. After being warned and then going on to take him out he deserves a harsh penalty. He deserves an even harsher penalty considering what he did to Dion in the Busch car that could have been a serious/life threatening injury. James obviously suffers from road rage/anger management issues. If Eddie did something he didn't like, maybe a nudge is called for and then deal with it face to face, out of the car like a man. I'm not an Eddie fan by any stretch and I think at times he has the widest bumper on the track but he clearly was taken out the last two (Thompson) races for no good reason. You can't tolerate the actions that Civali demonstrated because at some point another driver is going to get killed by that stuff and none of us want that. If I was Ed Cox, I'd tell him in no uncertain terms, that another transgression like that would earn him a full season suspension.

You people keep bring up Dave Dion.
James made his peace with Dion.
I don't know why someone who has no stake in the matter is so concerened.
Yes , he has had times when he got into people.
But who are any of you to judge?
When Coby in the 77 took him out at Stafford 20 laps into the race he said nothing, When LW Miller spun him while he was running 3rd at Martinsville he said nothing.
When he got back up to Miller he didn't touch him.

Have any of you competed in anything?
I don't mean high school tennis, I mean something competive.
I'm sure the answer is no.
Tell me one driver in any division the has NEVER got into anyone.
I grew up watching Modifieds, No one likes a winner!!

[Precision Auto]

To quote:

"no one likes a winner".............

-or a whiner- JMO......Linda

[ThE sHaDoW]

When LW Miller spun him while he was running 3rd at Martinsville he said nothing.
When he got back up to Miller he didn't touch him.

Have any of you competed in anything?

Tell me one driver in any division the has NEVER got into anyone.

I grew up watching Modifieds, No one likes a winner!!

One statement at a time.

when he caught back up he was out of tires

what have you competed in?

I'm hard pressed to remember a time in the last 9 years that I've been on the tour when Jamie Tomaino got into anyone.

Everybody loved Richie ('cept maybe the guys he beat into the ground night after night), no bigger winner than that. I also feel confident in saying JB III won more than James, and people love him too.

You're arguments are weak and somewhat juvenile. You're arguing with every poster right or wrong, no matter what message board. I'm curious why you didn't object to the facts I laid out in my previous post? Is it due to the fact they are facts?

[Rabbit504]

I just love to argue.............. It's my nature


I'm done now
So all you bleacher creatures and self proclaimed racing experts can carry on:wave:

[Kevin]

Rabbit, I'm not going to get into a peein' contest with you. But I will say this.

I brought up The Dion thing from "years ago" because that really is my first and lasting impression of James. Seeing him in the back of Dion going into turn 3 never lifting with all four of Dave's tires locked and smoking (well, all 4 while the back ones where still on the track.) trying to slow down both cars and as hard as Dion hit the wall is a lasting impresson. If you happened to be there, I'm sure it would have been for you, maybe. What ever reason James had for doing that don't float in my book. They arrest people for doing that on the streets, it's called road rage. On that night he set himself up with that reputation, which may take a lifetime to shed. And maybe, just maybe, that day "years ago" had something to do with the decision by NASCAR at Thompson.

Me not being at Thompson is not worse. I have plenty of pretty credible, unbiased, sources. And the person that told me what happened has nothing to gain by telling me what he saw. Or trying to make James look bad in my eyes. I didn't even know he helped Doug last weekend until after I asked him if he saw what happened. I figured he may have been in the stands. Our friendship over the past few years was built on trust and truth. So I trust that he told me the truth on this too.

None of what I posted is hearsay, or anything from internet geeks. I'm not a fan, I'm a racer. You state.... "you grew up watching modifieds." So did I, right up to the time I was old enough to help build them.

So whatever your relationship is with James, as was said before, your support of James is admirable. And it's obvious that may never change. But maybe instead of defending him so often, with this many people that disagree with you, maybe it's time you sat back and became honest with yourself about all this. If you ever come to the realization that it's not all of us ganging up on you OR James, and see what so many others see, then maybe that's the time you should talk to him and tell him so. Instead of letting him self destruct a pottential future at higher levels of racing by letting him continue thinking that everything he does is OK, be honest about it, no matter how painfull it may seem to be.

[FirstHand]

I come on these sites and read all of your comments. I have been for years. However, up to this point, I have never written a response. It seems that everyone wants facts facts facts. I have no interest in fighting back and forth. I am not a fan sitting in the stands making up rumors or someone who has gotten second hand information from other people. If you all would like the TRUE facts, here they are:

James raced 148 laps without making contact with a single competitor
Don DID speak to the #10 owner about the points battle, asking Eddie to give up 1 position
Mr Teto shook his head YES in an understanding and then got onto the radio with Flemke (whether this was truly relayed to Eddie? Well, sounds now that there’s a possibility it wasn’t).
Don relayed the message to James that Teto agreed and was speaking to Eddie.
The 28 team, nor James, heard Cox make a comment about rough driving. Therefore James was NOT trying to one up the director of the WMT. Not saying that Cox didn’t say it, however at that point there was commotion going on with the discussion back and forth between the 10 owner, Don, and James.
James did NOT take out Flemke 4 times this year. Where do you get your info? Funny that you make all these accusations however all the times we’ve spoken to Flemke he’s never seemed to have a direct problem with James.
Flemke should not have been racing so hard against the 2nd-6th place point leaders (#28, #19, #59, #36) for this simple fact: RESPECT the people racing for points. Guess what people? We get this SAME speech EVERY single year!

I’m sorry to disappoint the fans out there that think racing is JUST pure racing. There are times, it is not. It happens in ALL levels of racing. We are all family on the WMT. We look out for each other and try to help each other out at times. This is one time that that should have taken place. Don has been supporting Race Works since 1996. 100% loyal! Flemke had nothing to gain (points wise) by that position and James had the world to gain. As a longtime friend and Race Works team car, Flemke (or maybe Flemkes team) should have thought about that.

There’s logical thinking in a situation like this and there is realistic thinking. The logical thinking sets in after you have time to think things over. The REALISTIC thinking takes place when you’re running 110 mph, neck and neck, 2 laps to go and 1 position means the difference between 3rd and 6th in points. Not making an excuse for James to get into Eddie, but unfortunately at the time, that’s the realistic thinking that took place. Obviously now that people have had time to think logically, that wasn’t the best decision. HOWEVER, I can pretty much guarantee you that any other driver in James’ position, including Flemke, would have drove their car balls deep into that third turn, pushed the driver into the marbles and taken off turn 4 to the finish. But I’m sure there would be nobody complaining about that right? Then we’d be having a completely different discussion about how it’s not fair that drivers pull slide jobs (and that’s not a fair way to pass).

People want to say the #28 wouldn’t have moved over if the shoe were on the other foot. But you are wrong. In fact, they have moved out of the way in past years for championship competitors.

For those of you that believe the consequence were warranted I ask you this?
What was Teddy’s penalty when he pushed Tyler Haydt all the way down the front stretch of Thompson and into the Turn 1 wall?? (You all want to bring up James and Dion, yet people never cared when Tyler was knocked out and dazed and confused for a good week after that wreck).
What was Steffys penalty (this weekend) when he wrecked the 09 into T3 and admitted to it over his radio? He cost the the 09 rookie of the year.
What was LW Millers penalty we he spun James out of the race at Martinsville?
What about when Teddy put Flemke into the wall at the last Thompson race?
And these are of course, only a few of MANY problems that have occurred where NO action or barely any action has taken place by NASCAR.

I do agree that NASCAR needs to step up the consequences. The officials and Cox are similar to a mentor or teacher to the competitors on the WMT. They need to be fair and reliable, otherwise they will not earn the respect from their “children”. Consequences should work in steps. First you’re warned, then you’re put down a lap, then you’re put on suspension and if you continue to race dirty, you are then thrown out for a period of time. And most importantly, EVERYONE should get the same penalties, in the same order.

And lastly, for those of you that truly believe James just goes out on the track and drives like a mad man. You are correct. He puts 110% effort into every lap he races. But wrecking people purposely? You couldn’t be MORE wrong. Racing is racing and when you, on average, pass more cars on the track than most of your competitors ..you’re bound to get into someone at least once during a race.

So there you have it, the FACTS!

[SteveS]

I come on these sites and read all of your comments. I have been for years. However, up to this point, I have never written a response. It seems that everyone wants facts facts facts. I have no interest in fighting back and forth. I am not a fan sitting in the stands making up rumors or someone who has gotten second hand information from other people. If you all would like the TRUE facts, here they are:

James raced 148 laps without making contact with a single competitor
Don DID speak to the #10 owner about the points battle, asking Eddie to give up 1 position
Mr Teto shook his head YES in an understanding and then got onto the radio with Flemke (whether this was truly relayed to Eddie? Well, sounds now that there’s a possibility it wasn’t).
Don relayed the message to James that Teto agreed and was speaking to Eddie.
The 28 team, nor James, heard Cox make a comment about rough driving. Therefore James was NOT trying to one up the director of the WMT. Not saying that Cox didn’t say it, however at that point there was commotion going on with the discussion back and forth between the 10 owner, Don, and James.
James did NOT take out Flemke 4 times this year. Where do you get your info? Funny that you make all these accusations however all the times we’ve spoken to Flemke he’s never seemed to have a direct problem with James.
Flemke should not have been racing so hard against the 2nd-6th place point leaders (#28, #19, #59, #36) for this simple fact: RESPECT the people racing for points. Guess what people? We get this SAME speech EVERY single year!

I’m sorry to disappoint the fans out there that think racing is JUST pure racing. There are times, it is not. It happens in ALL levels of racing. We are all family on the WMT. We look out for each other and try to help each other out at times. This is one time that that should have taken place. Don has been supporting Race Works since 1996. 100% loyal! Flemke had nothing to gain (points wise) by that position and James had the world to gain. As a longtime friend and Race Works team car, Flemke (or maybe Flemkes team) should have thought about that.

There’s logical thinking in a situation like this and there is realistic thinking. The logical thinking sets in after you have time to think things over. The REALISTIC thinking takes place when you’re running 110 mph, neck and neck, 2 laps to go and 1 position means the difference between 3rd and 6th in points. Not making an excuse for James to get into Eddie, but unfortunately at the time, that’s the realistic thinking that took place. Obviously now that people have had time to think logically, that wasn’t the best decision. HOWEVER, I can pretty much guarantee you that any other driver in James’ position, including Flemke, would have drove their car balls deep into that third turn, pushed the driver into the marbles and taken off turn 4 to the finish. But I’m sure there would be nobody complaining about that right? Then we’d be having a completely different discussion about how it’s not fair that drivers pull slide jobs (and that’s not a fair way to pass).

People want to say the #28 wouldn’t have moved over if the shoe were on the other foot. But you are wrong. In fact, they have moved out of the way in past years for championship competitors.

For those of you that believe the consequence were warranted I ask you this?
What was Teddy’s penalty when he pushed Tyler Haydt all the way down the front stretch of Thompson and into the Turn 1 wall?? (You all want to bring up James and Dion, yet people never cared when Tyler was knocked out and dazed and confused for a good week after that wreck).
What was Steffys penalty (this weekend) when he wrecked the 09 into T3 and admitted to it over his radio? He cost the the 09 rookie of the year.
What was LW Millers penalty we he spun James out of the race at Martinsville?
What about when Teddy put Flemke into the wall at the last Thompson race?
And these are of course, only a few of MANY problems that have occurred where NO action or barely any action has taken place by NASCAR.

I do agree that NASCAR needs to step up the consequences. The officials and Cox are similar to a mentor or teacher to the competitors on the WMT. They need to be fair and reliable, otherwise they will not earn the respect from their “children”. Consequences should work in steps. First you’re warned, then you’re put down a lap, then you’re put on suspension and if you continue to race dirty, you are then thrown out for a period of time. And most importantly, EVERYONE should get the same penalties, in the same order.

And lastly, for those of you that truly believe James just goes out on the track and drives like a mad man. You are correct. He puts 110% effort into every lap he races. But wrecking people purposely? You couldn’t be MORE wrong. Racing is racing and when you, on average, pass more cars on the track than most of your competitors ..you’re bound to get into someone at least once during a race.

So there you have it, the FACTS!

There is a difference between a slip up and intentionally taking out a competitor. Stefanik screwed up and admitted it. That happens to everybody at some point and when a guy with a pretty darn clean track record like Steffy, Marquis, Szegedy, or Tomaino does it you can be pretty sure they sincerely regret it. Those things probably shouldn't be penalized if there does not appear to be intent AND it is a rarity. What TC did to Eddie at the last Thompson race ranks very close to this incident with Civali and probably deserved a similar penalty. The major difference was James drilled Eddie three times in one lap that I counted (that is not thinking realistic or logical) but TC pulled a banzai into the grass and slipped up into Eddie. So while he may not have tried to take Eddie out he made a move that was doomed from the start and there was still a enough laps left at that point to drive like a human and he probably could have won it. Both those guys have tremendous talent but they lack common respect. This season sucked from a standpoint of racing quality. A lot of the races this year would not encourage a newbie fan to keep coming back for more. There were way too many cautions and they took way too long to get back to green. This tour needs a director who will lay down some real law and enforce it uniformly. We lost a great competitor this year in JBIII and it probably didn't have to happen if the drivers faced consequences for not racing with respect. The envelope keeps getting pushed further, the racing suffers and we will bury more drivers if someone doesn't get control of these guys. James or anyone else can't rationalize taking someone out simply because they don't pull over. Grow up already James, take your penalty and thank God you haven't killed anyone with this road rage. If you can't learn to control your emotions behind the wheel you shouldn't be there. As I said earlier deal with it face to face like a man.

[jfp711]

I'll say this, anybody who will use the mirror to line up the RR of their racecar to the LF of a competitors to take them out then brag about it IMO is a real danger to the sport I've heard those comments, and it's real scary that these kids have ZERO respect for the car owners, the competitors or the sport. I'm surprised we only lost one driver this year, and that was one two many. I don't care what anybody says about TC, Stef ect. these guys race hard but will not danger the life of a fellow driver buy using the car as a weapon, I'm sure I don't need to use examples here, but if somebody in NASCAR does not take the bull by the horn here we will lose more drivers, and fans because of the wreck fest week in and week out, so you know what, James desereves everything he got, god know's I'm not a flemke, Jr fan can't stand the guy but he should not be put in danger because of a loose canon behind the wheel of a racecar I don't care if your a fan of #28 or not when does it stop, I feel like I now enough people, drivers ,crew members, and car owners that run the tour and the one thing I hear are these kids have ZERO respect for the sport, and IMO that's the real crime. Richie, Troyer, Bouchard, Santos, Cleary, Bugs ect. these guys made this sport what it is today and my only hope is that somebody cleans this sh** up before it's too late. NASCAR should not allow James run the first 2 events next year then after that same thing happens pull his liscene, that should go for any driver that races with that type of mentality. And for the people who have been around this sport for a while we all know that rubbin and bumpin happens but we also know when somebody does it on purpose. That's how I feel, I love hard racing and sparks flyin and moving somebody out of the way, but I hate the use of a racecar as a weapon.

[Groundpounder]

Nascar should have pulled his license permanently after the Dion incident.

[CynthiaTork]

Anytime, any sanctioning body takes a harsh stand on rough riding, I stand 100% behind that sanctioning body.

[hollywoodmic]

I am not a James Civali fan nor do I dislike him, I think the Civali fans big deal is where was the consistency all year. They were able to bring up incidents this year where no actions were taken. I think the officials need to be consistent with the decisions they make, why start with the last race if you have not enforced this type of penalty all year. Again let me say I was there and I thought what the 28 did was ridiculous and uncalled for. This post started out as "does the punishment fit the crime" I don't remember much punishment all year for crimes I read about after almost every race. I don't feel his fans are justifying his actions, I think they are just questioning the punishment based on the seasons penalties.

[W. J.]

Everything good has to start somewhere, even if it is the last race of the season.
What all should be hoping for is that it carries over to next season and beyond. Only because everything bad has to stop somewhere. We all like someone out there, and our foremost concern should be for the safety of all. We have lost too many drivers and can not stand to lose any more, so if the incidents of bad driving are reduced, then the health of our favorites will be better protected.
It was a severe penalty, but it should serve to make EVERYONE stop and think.

[fan28]

Exactly Hollywood Mic You don't have to agree with my opinion but at least you understand the point I was trying to make.

[WMT10]

We all can go on and on (esp me) about our views and opinions on this topic. We can also think that we know the facts. However, the ones that know the FACTS are those that were directly involved. Not the ones saying I heard or I saw!!!
Firsthand...There are many things that are not accurate in your post however I am not going to argue or comment. I am all washed up!
Finally...Did anyone stop and think (or in that case know) why the 28 owner (did?) or did not go over the radio and tell Doug to give up his spot? Since he and Civali were teamates for that race. Nothing against Doug I wish he gets a ride for next year but what did he have to lose? Please don't all get defensive just inquiring.

[FirstHand]

WT10....My post was not inaccurate. I am 100% positive about that. And just to answer your question...Doug was planning on giving up the spot for James if need be. However, before the race was over, Doug was already running 1 to 2 spots behind James...so it wasnt necessary. And for anyone who might be wondering..that was NOT the reason Doug was in the race. He was there to race as hard as he could and take down a win if possible. As the team and owner are longtime friends of Doug, we would have liked nothing more than to see him do well. If there is anyone on the Tour who should have a secure ride and does not..it is Doug. I believe he has proven that over and over again this year.

[WMT10]

Like I stated previously
WE CAN THINK THAT WE KNOW ALL OF THE FACTS!! HOWEVER THE ONES THAT KNOW THE FACTS ARE (WERE) THOSE THAT ARE (WERE) DIRECTLY INVOLVED.

[jfp711]

I'm pretty impressed that this thread did not get out of control. I think there were some pretty positive post, I think safety of these drivers was the #1 thing that I took out of this, hopefully somebody in NASCAR will do the same.

[Brian Hawks]

Sorry to be so late on this situation..

When LW Miller dumped the 28 at "The Mart" He pitted for tires. Shadow mentioned he was out of time. That was incorrect. He was told by NASCAR not to touch the 36 car.

Not to mention every time Civali has been down South, he passed more cars before the green flag drops than he does all night. I got the privlage of putting a car back together because he decided to just drive someone into the wall.

[ThE sHaDoW]

Sorry to be so late on this situation..

When LW Miller dumped the 28 at "The Mart" He pitted for tires. Shadow mentioned he was out of time. That was incorrect. He was told by NASCAR not to touch the 36 car.

Not to mention every time Civali has been down South, he passed more cars before the green flag drops than he does all night. I got the privlage of putting a car back together because he decided to just drive someone into the wall.

Brian, re-read my post. I said he was out of TIRES not TIME, that's why he couldn't get past LW.

[David]

Maybe Brian cant remember.

[Brian Hawks]

Brian, re-read my post. I said he was out of TIRES not TIME, that's why he couldn't get past LW.


Excuse my typo.. but however I did post the correct information. HE PITTED FOR TIRES. How could he have been "out of tires" NASCAR told the 28 not to touch the 36. That's ALL I was mentioning.

[Brian Hawks]

Sorry to be so late on this situation..

When LW Miller dumped the 28 at "The Mart" He pitted for tires. Shadow mentioned he was out of tires. That was incorrect. He was told by NASCAR not to touch the 36 car.

Not to mention every time Civali has been down South, he passed more cars before the green flag drops than he does all night. I got the privlage of putting a car back together because he decided to just drive someone into the wall.

Corrected my typo in this post.. And would also like to add, When I speak of Civali.. I meant CARAWAY!!!!

[ThE sHaDoW]

Corrected my typo in this post.. And would also like to add, When I speak of Civali.. I meant CARAWAY!!!!

whatever.

some people know what happened and others wonder what happened:wave: :disgusted

[Rabbit504]

whatever.

some people know what happened and others wonder what happened:wave: :disgusted

Amen to that!!
:wave:

[Brian Hawks]

You are the biggest know it all of them all Shadow.

I watched him pit for tires.... And we heard them across the NASCAR Freq tell them if he touched the 36 he was parked...

It's not fiction... How can you prove your non sense Shadow...

[ThE sHaDoW]

You are the biggest know it all of them all Shadow.

I watched him pit for tires.... And we heard them across the NASCAR Freq tell them if he touched the 36 he was parked...

It's not fiction... How can you prove your non sense Shadow...

Know-it-all, hardly. I am on the other side of the fence, so I do talk to other teams/crew members/owners/drivers. We're all friends on that side. We might get mad at each other over a perceived bonehead move, but next race we're friends again. So how do I know, I spoke to James at the next race, he told me by the time he got to the 36 he had used up the advantage he gained by pitting for one RR tire (not 4 tires). He had nothing left and nothing to gain (north and south finishes we separate) by passing LW. He was going to get credited with 3rd if he finished in front of or behind the 36. So who did you speak to, the beer vendor?

Go find my post, I said he was out of tires, I dont know how else I can get that point through to you. I know he pitted, I saw it from the spotters box. I know LW turned him, saw that as well. Sometimes, I understand Rabbit's frustration.

[Brian Hawks]

I see where you are coming from.. And all of our teams are the same down south with a few exceptions..

All I was saying was what NASCAR said. LW turned him... I saw that to... And it appeared to everyone what was getting ready to happen.. thus NASCARs statement. We are stating the same stuff.. not sure what we are arguging about.

[jfp711]

That was a great way to end that thread.................