PDA

View Full Version : Troubled by a recent post in the Late Model thread. My rant. (long)



btgoss
02-27-2008, 02:46 PM
In a recent post on the Riverhead Late Model portion of this forum, someone had suggested that the track drop the Late Model division. Instead of people expressing their disagreement in a rational way, it quickly devolved to name calling and the thread was closed. I got to the thread after it had been closed, and I am sorry for that since that is one of my favorite topics to discuss. Aside from an answer to that question I want to ask why there was a such a reaction to that opinion?

For those people who got on that guy about his opinion, you really need to sit down and relax. It was his opinion. You may say something to the effect of "Well, he shouldn't have said it in this forum." That is just wrong. The Late Model forum is the best place to say something like that, where supposedly the people most closely involved will have the ability to comment. To beat that person up for his opinion was just wrong, and those who commented along those lines really should feel ashamed. It showed not only a complete lack of understanding of what a forum is supposed to promote, but it showed the lack of respect for another person that it seems the track is finally going to address.

This forum should be the best place to express negative opinions about the track and those who race there, but only when everyone gives each other the respect they would expect in return.

That having been said.

The Late Model division should be given the axe. As should the Chargers. Plan a 2-4year transition period, where at the end of that time the "new" Late Model division will be born, running cars more in line with the Late Models from the Connecticut tracks. This should be done for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is anemic car counts of both divisions. Many of you seem to forget this is entertainment, and bringing in fresh blood is the single most important consideration at Riverhead, and really any track. At this point there is very little difference, to the new fan, between the two classes. There is nothing "special" about either one. Combined with the low car counts, and you are left with about 25 guys who really want to race, so combine the division. This makes the division "special" as there will not really be other cars that look like that racing, and it makes the show better, with more real racing.

The Trucks, well they are neither Super nor Professional. Combine them in as well, 4 years then they are gone.

I could go on, but I have made my point about the divisions mentioned in the original post.

The problem of the top division having the highest car counts needs to be addressed. This could be just one way of doing it.

Rational responses are welcomed.

CheckerWon
02-27-2008, 03:04 PM
Blunderbust division has the highest car count every year not the "top" division....................Artie P.

Mike Fields
02-27-2008, 06:06 PM
Artie, the "low-buck" division at most tracks usually have the highest car count (no surprise there). Still, it's rarely the feature division.

Turbo
02-27-2008, 06:16 PM
So generally your saying get rid of 3 divisions and make them into 1? So we will have about 3 divisions a night. And your right, everyone gets their shot to show their positive or negative opinion. And I think jeffrey expressed his opinion about the drivers and the division, and the late model guys responded back with their opinions on how it kinda was like a shot to the heart since they are working hard at trying to get racing back to what it used to be. So mostly all the responders felt that the post of his opinion was hurting the hopes they have on reviving racing in general. If I look back, I only seen one negative thing said about getting rid of the division compared to about 25 disagreeing showing their displeasure. Let them show their displeasure, because it showed me that the racing community is sticking together on getting racing back to what its suppose to be. Makes me confident that we are becoming a "racing community" again by sticking together!!!! :applause: I like to see that more often!! and remember...this is all "just my opinion"!!

WEEZER
02-27-2008, 06:30 PM
The positives of only havng 3 divisions would be higher cars counts (guys whose class was dropped would either move up/down/or not race), heat races would mean a helluva lot more and the show would be done at a reasonable time, but the job of deciding what divisions go is one I'd never want.

The Bullfather
02-27-2008, 07:59 PM
A lot of tracks have phased out divisions to help grow a newer division with similiar rules. We've exprienced losing divisions on Long Island. I'm not backing either opinion but this thread is a lot better then what we had before! :lol: How many times did we hear a rumor of the Pro Trucks being moved in with the Charger class? I know I've heard many times the past 4-5 years. I'm happy it didn't happen, but we've seen a lot of drivers move over or into the truck division. I feel our Late Model class should be more like thoses in Northeast, more tracks for bigger money when an off night is available or atleast the option! I'm not sure how much the money difference would be, maybe J.A. can fill us in, he's more in tune with the LMs in the area. We've also seen Mighty Mike take his hot rod up north and run good, but how many cars here can run with thoses guys and their equipment? Home advantage will always be a plus for the drivers!

btgoss
02-27-2008, 10:24 PM
The real positives of trimming back on the number of divisions would be a better show. One that should allow a return to the 6-7pm start time, while keeping the end of the night at the required 11pm (actually the track should aim for a 10pm end time, a 3-4 hour show should be the goal,)
This should help the crowds, and should help the track to be a better neighbor. That is something that the track cannot do enough of, don't make waves. Show the people of Riverhead that the track is going to be a positive influence on the town.
Merging those divisions will see some people drop out, that is certain, but if you could form a solid core of 25-30 guys. Running cars that can race somewhere else, and that aren't too expensive. Well I think that would be a winning situation. What is the downside?
Change is very important in life, and honestly Riverhead has not changed enough. But you can clearly see that it was not done out of greed or malice. They have given just about every division that has raced on Long Island a home. They haven't been ruthless, when perhaps they should have. They need to prune some of those dead branches.

We can discuss what they should run. I have my ideas, and I have said them here before. The modifieds should transition into an SST/SK type car, the Charger/Truck/Late Models should merge in the new Late Models, the Blunderbusts could still remain the same, but they are getting a little too much like big Chargers and that will become a problem. So there are your 3 weekly divisions. Legends, which will again pass all other divisions in car count at the end of 2 years, will alternate with the Figure 8 guys for a fourth division, but that should alternate with something for the rubes. You know monster truck, Captain Dynomite, Motorcycle Stunt show. The Legend and Figure 8 will both have that Sunday show with the Enduros. This is very much like what worked during the golden age of Long Island racing, and there is nothing that says it shouldn't work now.

Also, just so I am clear, the Figure 8 guys are on notice as well. They need to get a set of rules that promotes a larger field since that is really the show for the non or new race fan. And make no mistake, that is the role that division should play.

So that's that.

W. J.
02-27-2008, 10:52 PM
BT, you have some different ideas than what's been presented before, but I see a problem. What do the displaced drivers/owners do with the leftover equipment when a division is dropped or changed? Many have a very big investment in that equipment, as this is no longe the 50's or 60's when most of it was salvaged from scrap yards, hopped up, and raced. 5 figures for an engine is the norm in almost every division out there, and while I know that's part of the problem, there needs to be a viable solution, and I can think of none.

Modifieds downgraded to SK? I don't think that's going to happen, not without a lot of disturbance from the folks who own them. As for 'folding one division into another', you might be able to do it gradually with LM/Charger cars that currently run at Riverhead, but not without some big expense being laid off on one or both divisions, and you just might not achieve the desired result.

In the end, simply stated, your ideas are good, but they aren't practical to today's circumstances. It might have been a good idea 10 years back before the cars became what they are now, but too many people's bank accounts would suffer from the wholesale changes you're talking about, and I just don't think it will happen. J/M/O

unowho243
02-27-2008, 11:53 PM
Wow another senseless thread.....
seems that if you don't like so many divisions at the track then why do you come?
I don't think any of the divisions at Riverhead should be dropped or merged.Go to other tracks the size of Riverhead most divisions have 8-10 cars as the NORM so don't complain, i think the racing here is great in all divisions. It seems that most of your posts on this forum are negative BT. Why must you waste all of our time on useless rants? I seriously wonder why you bother if you were a real racefan like the rest of us you would come up with plans to make the divisions better not just say "CAN" them if they don't increase car counts:mad:

RacinRob
02-28-2008, 12:34 AM
I dont think that Riverhead should drop any of there division but SHOULD make there rules more other track friendly....you go to mountain on an off night for the mods or late models you see our guys going there. When do you ever see an outside guy coem to Riverhead? Also our divisions are kind of not the "norm" we dont really have a street stock divisons as most tracks do. The blunderbust are too heavy for a street stock and the chargers are too advanced. Just a couple of thoughts or opinions no negativity.

wayne
02-28-2008, 06:22 AM
Here we go again!!

LongIslandJam
02-28-2008, 09:11 AM
btgoss has the right to his own opinion.

And face it, with less divisions you can have more laps, better purses, and you'll wind up (eventually) with better car counts. You can grandfather in the old cars to make it work.

It makes sense, it's just tough when you've got to cut your own leg off to survive. The key is no drastic changes in short-term. Stretch out any changes.

Hollywood
02-28-2008, 09:11 AM
Oh Boy!
If you make the late models, chargers and the trucks all in the same division there could be some serious problems.. Mostly money problems.. The chargers exist because it is less expensive to run, as well as the trucks. The late models have to be almost as expensive as the Mods to run. Sounds to me like NASCAR is ahead of the game making speedways use a CRATE motor to keep costs down and car counts up... Wasn't there a big stink not too long ago that "we" will NOT have crate motor divisions here? It's gonna happen..... JMO HW

Golf Guy
02-28-2008, 12:46 PM
In a recent post on the Riverhead Late Model portion of this forum, someone had suggested that the track drop the Late Model division. Instead of people expressing their disagreement in a rational way, it quickly devolved to name calling and the thread was closed. I got to the thread after it had been closed, and I am sorry for that since that is one of my favorite topics to discuss. Aside from an answer to that question I want to ask why there was a such a reaction to that opinion?
For those people who got on that guy about his opinion, you really need to sit down and relax. It was his opinion. You may say something to the effect of "Well, he shouldn't have said it in this forum." That is just wrong. The Late Model forum is the best place to say something like that, where supposedly the people most closely involved will have the ability to comment. To beat that person up for his opinion was just wrong, and those who commented along those lines really should feel ashamed. It showed not only a complete lack of understanding of what a forum is supposed to promote, but it showed the lack of respect for another person that it seems the track is finally going to address.

This forum should be the best place to express negative opinions about the track and those who race there, but only when everyone gives each other the respect they would expect in return.

That having been said.

The Late Model division should be given the axe. As should the Chargers. Plan a 2-4year transition period, where at the end of that time the "new" Late Model division will be born, running cars more in line with the Late Models from the Connecticut tracks. This should be done for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is anemic car counts of both divisions. Many of you seem to forget this is entertainment, and bringing in fresh blood is the single most important consideration at Riverhead, and really any track. At this point there is very little difference, to the new fan, between the two classes. There is nothing "special" about either one. Combined with the low car counts, and you are left with about 25 guys who really want to race, so combine the division. This makes the division "special" as there will not really be other cars that look like that racing, and it makes the show better, with more real racing.

The Trucks, well they are neither Super nor Professional. Combine them in as well, 4 years then they are gone.

I could go on, but I have made my point about the divisions mentioned in the original post.

The problem of the top division having the highest car counts needs to be addressed. This could be just one way of doing it.

Rational responses are welcomed.
I disagree with you in so many ways I don't know where to start. First the Jeffrey guy started his post with "they should do away with the late models sorry to say". Negativity will always breed negativity, especially when you are being negative about a group that is prideful (which the LM class is). He follows up his first insightful post with "I feel sorry for you late model drivers.for the last 10 or so years the owners of riverhead have treated you guys like $#!t.and you guys think by haveing two talks you guys had will change things". You cannot expect anything but a strong reaction. Many times I feel some people make these types of statements just to get a reaction. Now on to your post btgoss. You are very quick to reduce divisions and put division on "notice". What do you own and race out at the track? Because if you are telling any of the guys and girls who put their money, sweat, tears, and time into building, fixing and getting their cars ready to race that they are going away because you do not see the fun it- well you have a big fight on your hands. (I know Walt, that was a run on sentence). Let me ask one question, why should the owners of Riverhead be concerned that the cars in their racing division be legal at other race tracks? I personally don't think cars travel here for 2 reasons, costs and perceived (or not) fairness of racing.
Again I have no problems with opinions; everyone will always have one, or two or three... But come on, opinions should have an ounce of constructiveness to them or keep them to yourself.
If I hurt Jeffrey’s feelings or yours btgoss, then I apologize. But racing is a way of life, either your in or your out.

The Bullfather
02-28-2008, 02:38 PM
Now this post is atleast is a good conversation. Its good to bring out ideas, if people like them or not. Change has happen in the past and will in the future. I'd hate to see any division go, but when there isn't growth it only hurts the division. As Hollywood said a lot of divisions are going with crate motors, would the Late Models or Chargers benefit more with a crate motor? We need to save face and keep car counts up without hurting the racing on the track. We've grown accustomed with the divisions and rules we have for the divisions. I don't think we'll ever see the Mod class move to a sk style, too many mods and too many teams would have the change and that not a class that is lacking cars right now. Some nights we had a hard time getting a full field, but some nights we sent guys home without making the feature. I love the fact we have tour style mods, they can go to other tracks and race WMT mods.

What would you like to see to help theses divisions grow or grow into?

WEEZER
02-28-2008, 02:56 PM
One Idea is a figure 8 feature starting early in the evening once a month. When this class gets it going in a feature, the excitement at the X is unbelievable, and like btgoss said, the track needs to get new fans into racing and this would be one way. How many parents (decent ones at least) keep thier kids (6 to 12) at the track until 10pm when the fig 8's finally roll out? I Know last year there was a few early shows or when the 8's went out early, but if the track made a once a month early fig 8 feature and advertise it maybe more fans/drivers would be made and get the stands or pits fuller????

Hollywood
02-28-2008, 03:08 PM
WEEZER! YOUR RIGHT! You used the magic word!!!!!!!! ADVERTISE! If the track advertised and gave a handful of tickets to each team to give out to potentially new FANS at the track, the payouts may actually increase thus causing more out of town cars to show up and race. WOW Just think about it... When more cars show up at the rear gate, more people pay to enter the pits, and oh my goodness.........next thing you know WE HAVE A FULL FIELD! sorry for the sarcasm...

btgoss
02-28-2008, 03:26 PM
I understand people would not like having the divisions merge, and I understand the problem of people having invested in their equipment. And I recognize the fact that I do not own a car or race at the track. That having been said, I still think a long term plan needs to be put in place.

A 2-4 year plan that results in the combination of the 3 weakest divisions is ultimately in the best interest of almost everyone involved. Equipment can be "grandfathered" in, with controls added by weight and tires to make the field more or less even. This was supposed to have been done long ago when the street stocks became the Late Models. It can be argued that it wasn't handled correctly, but that was a very different time for racing on the Island, and that division in particular. And please understand, when I say weakest divisions, I am talking about the car counts, and not the feelings of those who are racing in those divisions.
Yes some people will not continue to race at the track, but I really think that overall you will see a much better product.

As for the Modifieds going SK, I know we currently have a very healthy field of cars. However, when you look at the number of Tour races that the Riverhead drivers actually make, and the current method for drivers to qualify for those races, unless a team is going to run a large part of the tour the odds of making a tour race are very low. I think this has been shown with the number of Riverhead drivers who try to quality for the tour races. I do not think the track running an SK class in place of Tour modifieds will have much impact overall. Those who try to make tour races have multiple cars, and those cars will still be available to them. It may help the middle of the pack cars run on more even footing, which should produce better racing.

As for most of my posts being negative I agree they can be seen that way. I personally do not think this post is negative. I also understand this discussion is just an exercise in theory, as there is nothing I can do about this situation. However I think that ideas need to be expressed. The reality is Riverhead is the last track we have, and in all likelihood, it is the last track that will exist on Long Island. Making a better show at the track, that also shortens the length of the show, and maybe lowers the cost of racing, is something that I think we all should desire. It just may help Riverhead stay in operation that much longer.

The current path of adding more and more divisions, and having earlier and earlier start times is one that cannot continue, there just is not enough time in the day. Not to mention what it is doing the price of admission. I only hope the track considers some form of long term plan to get the show back to something that is not only more fun, but ultimately would be more marketable.

The alternative is just about where we are now. Something that is little more then a club racecourse. Where any group of 10 friends can get together to race each other if they have the pit fees.

btgoss
02-28-2008, 03:43 PM
One point that I hadn't addressed was the changing of Riverhead rules to be more inline with those of others Speedways. And you are 100% correct, the track would want to keep this from happening. But the drivers and teams should be very vocal about wanting it to happen.

Aside from the fact that you can run at other tracks, should a team desire. It allows a team to buy and or sell equipment from many more places.

I would think that would have been the obvious financial benefit.

An East Coast Pavement Modified for example, can be sold in just about every state along the East Coast (hence the name, but you get the point). Where, with the exception of Riverhead, are the other divisions cars going to be sold. Yes there are places where the rules are fairly close for the Chargers and Late Models, but those differences will certainly mean less return on the investment.

However if our Late Models are the same Late Models run in Connecticut, or even the MAARA type Late Model run upstate, the options for available sale go way up.

This is why you are going to see the Legends come back as the strongest division (in car counts) within 2 years. You can sell a Legends car anywhere. There is always that built in market.

I would think the financial side of this would be obvious.

jeffrey
02-28-2008, 05:16 PM
I was not going to say anything about the late models i let it go.but to the people that hated me for saying what i said its ok.people get upset when someone tells them something and down deep in side they know its the truth.so instead of saying why riverhead should keep the late models.all they can do is bash me or people with the some thorts.its ok your right i cant spell right.im not ashamed of that.and im not really negative,i see riverhead doing well this year.and i hope more fans come out.and for my life i have a very good one.i have a great wife that lets me go to the races evrey saturday.gave me 3 wounderful kids and one on the way.so bash me all you want it doesn't bother me.so btgoss thanks.but be prepared they will do the same thing to you not all.but most,but cant get rid of the mods.but i would axe the late models and put the sk in that spot.sk and mods.that would make a great show.JR RULES.ONLY THERE FOR THE MODS.BYE

WEEZER
02-28-2008, 07:22 PM
At the rate that tracks are closing or rumored to be closing, having identical rules for each class sounds like a smart idea/investment. If wall shuts down where are all of those cars going, dirt at new egypt or bridgeport or coming to the island?

W. J.
02-28-2008, 07:54 PM
At the rate that tracks are closing or rumored to be closing, having identical rules for each class sounds like a smart idea/investment. If wall shuts down where are all of those cars going, dirt at new egypt or bridgeport or coming to the island?
Oh, they'd come to Long Island for sure (he said sarcasticallly), because they don't care that the cost of racing would now have the additional expense of paying higher tolls to subsidize mass transit. It would gladden their hearts knowing they were helping keep the fares low, making it easier for the muggers to get to their victims!:rolleyes:

latemodel34
02-29-2008, 03:10 AM
[jeffrey, under what rock did you crawl out from. havent seen you since quinn raced. yes you are entitled to your opinion, but man did you hit a nerve. as far as your first post it was barely coherent. and b.t. i dont understand where you are coming from either. first of all riverhead ,the management doesnt want to drop divisions. they have always tried to accomodate everyone. if they gave up on a division because of low car counts. the trucks would have been dropped the 2nd or 3rd year. and it worked out they have a decent count and everyone enjoys watching them. times change, the economy changes, cars, engines, fuel, tires ,everything gets more expensive. its been hard on many race teams. i have to work more, and its hard to find help when they are working also. riverhead knows that the demos and the other shows bring in the crowds and we need them. i feel that maybe we dont need 5 divisions and the extras everynight. 5-6 hour shows are too long. i dont want to see races cut, but that would help bring more cars to the track each week . because it would lower the yearly cost of racing. my opinon-- blend the chargers into the latemodels. they are going to have to eventually use a fabricated chassis. make two divisions into 1 and all you need is a weight penalty. it would be a start. you dont just DROP a division . you could also announce a change that in 2 years we are going to a spec motor. but i dont think thats an answer, just an option. busch north oops east did it and i hear that its working. Rob

btgoss
02-29-2008, 06:58 AM
Rob. I never said just cut them loose. I had thought I was clear that the 3 divisions should be combined over time (2-4 years seems reasonable), and that the use of controls established through tires and weight would allow some of the older cars to stay competitive.

The track has cut divisions in the past. The Legends had been cut, and before them the MiniMods had been cut. (Which if I am not mistaken had fields in the same range as the ProTrucks, but someone else could clarify that.) So the track has cut divisions. It just needs to do it in a more proactive way this time.

The track may not want to do this, but this is where the drivers and team owners need to see that this would be in their best interest and "encourage" the track to make these rules.

W. J.
02-29-2008, 07:16 AM
It is true, the Mini-Mods were dropped when their car count feel below 15. It was sad to see, since those 15 had at least 12 good racers in their midst, and from a fans perspective, it was still a good race.
It was nice to see that the SPT and others didn't suffer the same fate, and hopefully never will.
"Blending" the LM and Chargers would be difficult, but maybe a committee of knowledgeable people could be formed to explore that possibility if this is a real problem.

nascar071
02-29-2008, 12:55 PM
I've read each post and i will be honest as to my thinking. This is a generalization so please don't take it to heart if i dont respond to any one persons post. Dan, if you think back to the so called glory days late 80s - early 90s )we only had four divisions running. Mods, Late models/Street Stocks, Chargers( Dan was the King then too) and Figuire8s. The shows went off at 6:30 and most nights we were done by 10:30, if all went well. I think the show starts way to early now. We had large car counts and great racing. The payoffs stunk then too , but dont we race for the love of it anyway. The racing was different back then too. I raced with Paul Mac, Roger Oxee, and Robin, there was a certain respect that we had for each other and each others equipment. Yes we raced hard and yes there were nights that were less than perfect but we all knew were we stood and the fights were at a minimum. The times have changed , the costs are higher. For those who remember the last years of Freeport , the late model class was small , and they were very expensive to run, so freeport dropped them. I'm seeing the same thing happen now. To take a quote " you cant look at the picture if your inside the frame" may apply here. The track and the respected divisions need to look at what is best for all . When large changes take place someone will always get hurt. IN my opinion the chargers and late models are too similiar , i here it in the stands. Years ago i brought up the subject of putting the Truck, Chargers and the Figure 8s on an 8 inch treaded tire. Most didnt like the idea, for one reason or another. We run them on the BBs and they weigh 4100 lbs, yet we can race them for weeks. Hoosier changed the compond 2 years ago so we use more , but still not as much as you guys on slicks. Does it slow the cars? YES, so what, who cares, if everone is on them its a level field. If a change does'nt take place by either merging the late model and chargers , or at least making them radically different to attract more cars, i really dont see them lasting. Honestly how many guys can afford to run a late Model. they are expensive to run . All race cars are expensive. To rap it up , maybe we need to take a wait and see attitude , just to see what this season brings. If it doesnt change some very serious thought needs to be put in it. thanks for letting me rant, Ron Langdon

Golf Guy
02-29-2008, 12:56 PM
I just get steamed at the cavalier attitude some "outside" the LM division take about eliminating or combining the division when you have guy's like Roger Oxee working his tail off to save the division.

btgoss
02-29-2008, 02:48 PM
I don't think anyone in this thread has questioned the heart or drive of those guys who really champion the divisions in question. But I think Ron's quote above is the perfect example of perhaps those most closely involved are not the best folks to look at the bigger picture.

"You can't see the picture, if your in the frame."

That is perfect. You have to step outside and see that making the complete show at Riverhead a tighter, more diverse presentation is the way to go.

We can't forget it is entertainment.

BOWATCHER
02-29-2008, 06:15 PM
I keep seeing those letters SK pop up in some responses here. I for one would love to see this division compete at Riverhead in the near future.It can work by looking at some simple facts. The car count is getting better all the time. I for one think that having about a dozen healthy crews signing in at the back gate at any given night is a plus $$$. Let the SK use the same tire as the regular Modifieds more$$$ Many local drivers who own these cars now have competed at Riverhead in many divisions before and I feel would put on a hell of a show. Leave the rules alone !! same as CT rules !! Yes I know all 3 SK tracks are different !! But I believe they deserve a chance. Seeing Showtime twice in one night would sure make some excitement in the stands. The night the Tour comes to town and even some Sundays I am sure would be great. Just some thoughts I wanted too share. F. Kull

The Bullfather
02-29-2008, 06:24 PM
I doubt we'll see an SK division with all the equipment owned on Long Island with regular WMT style mods. Who besides TS Haulers has an sk, I know Richie Carmen used his mod for sk racing and also Russell Savoy. I don't think we need to start another division with mod style bodies at Riverhead. Not sure too many guys would jump over. Cost wise it makes sense, I guess with some older style bodies it might work.

randomrodder
02-29-2008, 06:56 PM
Just my .02. Bring back the old 6 cylinder basically stock suspended figure 8 cars with car counts of 40-50 a night running quailifing laps, etc. again. Start up the old street stock class again, merge the Chargers and LMs and leave the mods as they are.

That's how it was done back in the day until figure 8 cars went high tech, street stock merged into Chargers and so on.

We had a full show that started at 6 and we were all out by 1030, 11 at the latest. Bringing back the claimer engines wouldn't hurt car counts either. Might hurt some pocketbooks at first but car counts would grow and driver's abilities would account for more wins then $$$$$.

Ka$h25
03-01-2008, 02:17 AM
The fact is changes need to be made to accommodate the circumstances. The racetrack will not continue to wheel out 2 separate oval stockcar divisions. In my opinion, its a bit silly in the first place. Most of you are here with a biased opinion having some affiliation with some car, telling the unbiased opinion we're wrong.

I think the Chargers are the easy answer in who to eliminate, and it's not really fair. I think Charger races are still pretty enjoyable. It's the hour-long, 11 car late model-demolition derbies that bugged me last season. For guys who are so worried about "protecting their investments" they sure tore-up a lot of sheet metal in '07. So lets leave it alone, and see who wins in the end.

**Some people mentioned why the Trucks survived, and it's because they're an exclusive division, as most are. I'm sure the common fan has no idea the differences in Chargers/Late Models.

WEEZER
03-01-2008, 08:54 PM
Maybe the best answer to everybodys problematic question is to strictly enforce the rules for each division. By this I mean when the rules say stock, they mean stock. How many new divisions have been started and in less then a year the class has bloomed into a class almost twice as expensive then it originally started? Look at the fig 8's, how many times have we read posts about how out of hand the class has become? Look at the grand enduros, which I run in and can't afford to keep up with? Started out as a step up from 8 cyl enduro's to sweet looking street stocks. It's the same for each division, maybe if a REAL claimer rule was installed, drivers would keep the cost of a car at what it's supposed to be and then maybe racing would be more affordable for a lot of more drivers. Racing is out pricing itself. How many Cup and Nationwide cars have we seen this early in the season already with no sponsors on the car? I watched the 27 of Bobby Labonte at Vegas today totally black!!! And the 28 Cup car totally white, it goes from the best in Cup to the best at our local short tracks. Limit the money you can spend on a car and maybe you'll get more into racing?????????????

The"Roof"Rider
03-02-2008, 01:45 AM
I doubt we'll see an SK division with all the equipment owned on Long Island with regular WMT style mods. Who besides TS Haulers has an sk, I know Richie Carmen used his mod for sk racing and also Russell Savoy. I don't think we need to start another division with mod style bodies at Riverhead. Not sure too many guys would jump over. Cost wise it makes sense, I guess with some older style bodies it might work.

Goodale,VanHouten,Solomito,Orlando,Dennis Krupski, and I believe there's one out in Greenport also. Not to mention Rusty Turbush ran the SK class at Thompson the last race.

Ka$h25
03-02-2008, 02:31 AM
I could be out of my mind but I think Maynor has an SK ride.

W. J.
03-02-2008, 07:57 AM
I could be out of my mind but I think Maynor has an SK ride.I beleive he bought one, then thought better of it becasue of scheduling conflicts, and sold it.

SuperShafts
03-02-2008, 10:23 AM
I would agree on the chgr/lm theory....someone mentioned it....

You could lose that. What's the main diff...motors...same common body bs, let it go, not a loss there

As for rules and cars...if you can't race the car everywhere else...then the track needs to get on the ball with everyone else.

That's the issue with the blunderbust program problem...RR car rule is not what everyone else's is

Lose blunderbust and change it to super stock, then watch how that works out much better, then the insanely ridiculous rule of allowed cars to run now.

Then all you need to do is ENFORCE the rule to the letter, and when you do guess what you'll have at RR...you should be able to answer that yourselves......

btgoss
03-02-2008, 10:40 AM
Rules enforcement is a part of the solution. Obviously it would be a job that would be made much easier if the sanctioning body was more proactive in the weekly racing series.

Imagine if we had a national sanctioning body that created a set of rules for all of it's tracks. Then the tracks that ran under the banner of that organization would have a very specific formula to follow, or they would not get their full share of any point moneys.

You would see many changes quickly if something like that happened.
It's a shame we don't have an organization like that.... (and I know things never work that well anyway...)

One more thing with the switch to SK/SST rules for the modifieds. The real question is not who has a car that could race, I think the real question is "How many of the weekly modified drivers ever attempt to qualify for a tour race?" I think that number is very low. And then within that number, how many of those people are doing it with just one car? I think that would be a very small percentage of the drivers.

Then when most of the local tracks in our area are all running SK/SST rules, then we bring back the All-Star League. Man that would be something awesome. Short races, on different tracks, get it on HDNet, and the Modifieds become pertinent again.

Jaws
03-02-2008, 12:01 PM
The best shows I have been to at any tracks have 4 or less "regular" divisions.

At Riverhead none of the classes as they are currently can easily merge with another class.

All of the divisions are hurting for cars, the reason.... costs.

I believe the Late Models have the toughest battle ahead of them as they are not the top class, but they almost have costs like a top class.

In a perfect world merging the Late Models and Chargers would be great but it would cost teams a lot of money to change the cars and that would cost some cars.

Right now the Chargers draw what 17-25 cars most night and the Late Models 15-20 cars a night. Merging them would not get you more than 20- 25 cars a night so it would cost the track 8-15 cars a night. Multiply that by 5-10 crew members and drivers per night per team and the back gate suffers.

The best solution for the track right now are rules to make it less costly to race and build up what they have. But also with the economy hurting right now , that might not even help much either.

Its a tough time to be a short track racer (And fan) right now.

We are a dying breed my friends, enjoy the races while we can. Look at East Windsor in NJ. THey just plowed it under in the last few weeks for what? More houses, god knows the markets strong for those right now.

By the way about running SK's. What would you replace the full blow mods? Thats one of the last reasons I go to Riverhead its the Mods. Many of the drivers that race SK's do because they want to race at Stafford, Thompson and other SK tracks (Bigger tracks). If those tracks ran full blown modifieds (Which they don't because of costs) those same drivers would run Modifieds there too, not Riverhead.

If Riverhead ran them weekly I don't think those drivers would head to Rivehead and skip the other tracks, do you?

Fat Albert
03-02-2008, 02:50 PM
By the way about running SK's. What would you replace the full blow mods? Thats one of the last reasons I go to Riverhead its the Mods. Many of the drivers that race SK's do because they want to race at Stafford, Thompson and other SK tracks (Bigger tracks). If those tracks ran full blown modifieds (Which they don't because of costs) those same drivers would run Modifieds there too, not Riverhead.

If Riverhead ran them weekly I don't think those drivers would head to Rivehead and skip the other tracks, do you?

No, don't replace full blown Mods with SK's! But allow the SK's to run with the Mods and allow True Value Modified rules. The SK's would be highly competitive with the bigger carburetor and weight rule. Believe me they'll compete at Riverhead. I saw Robbie Summers win a TVMRS race at Waterford with an SK and Mike Holdridge finish second at Beech Ridge with his. And he was all over Kirk Alexander, trying to win that one. What a race that was!

By allowing the SK's to run, Riverhead might add a few cars to the field and encourage more competitiors to enter the less expensive Modified option.
But, PLEASE! Don't call them SK Modifieds! SK has no meaning! How about LS Modifieds! LS for Limited Sportsman! Or just call them Sportsman like in the old days! Ahhh! The old days, when things were so simple!

btgoss
03-02-2008, 04:49 PM
No. I am suggesting replacing the current Tour type modifieds with SST/SK Modifieds.

The actual difference, from a fans point of view between the two classes is almost non-existent. And I know there will be those who clamor for the "full blown" modifieds, but we haven't seen those around here for a very long time. (And for good reason)

Perhaps the cars won't show the same sort of "snap" off the corners as a Tour modified, but if they are all running that speed it doesn't matter.

The Bullfather
03-02-2008, 05:07 PM
I believe the Late Models have the toughest battle ahead of them as they are not the top class, but they almost have costs like a top class.

That is why Roger Oxee is fighting for the Late Model class! I give credit for the guys who put money into the their cars, it not a cheap sport! Keep on fighting to make the division better. But, also realize sometimes change has to come for the better of the whole racing community. A lot of drivers if not most (as do fans) call the Late Models a step up from Chargers. Kinda like going from AA ball to AAA ball. But I feel something has to happen something down the road to place both classes together, whose equipment will suffer the most if a change did happen, I don't know!

Viper Man
03-02-2008, 07:29 PM
Question here do you guy's really think RR will be around after a year or so? if not all this seems like a lot of talk about nuthin?

LongIslandJam
03-02-2008, 08:30 PM
It's interesting that there's dozens of opinions over what would make the track more successful. Not all of them wrong. But be wary. Sprint Cup is the evolution of too many changes at once. It hurt NASCAR, but in the long run, it may be for the better. All change should be gradual if possible, and done so to improve the sport, not for the sake of changing.

And while NO short track in the Northeast is safe from shopping-mall-dom, you can't live waiting for it to come as you'll miss out on some fun. Riverhead's here this year, and we can plan for the future. If we went by hearsay the track would have closed 10 years ago. It's still here, so let's work towards a better future with the facts that we do have.

Biltor57
03-02-2008, 09:34 PM
Hollywood,
I feel the same way we should go to crate motors, I think it would stop allot of shinanigans.
One Div has problems and some how Everyone gets dragged into it?
We have been racing up North and every track we go to has Crate Motors, But are more than Happy to work with us.
So Last year we had a Thompson late model built so we can be on the same playing field as everyone else. And this year I'm getting a crate Motor for my Charger car so I can run up North , without any Penalties or putting us in a higher Div (When we are not running at Riverhead.)
Other Tracks we go to don't put up with any Bull, People get suspended or Points taken away or Possible ban for the season.I don't Know I guess you can''t have everything.
Maybe we Need Group Hugs before Every Race?

W. J.
03-02-2008, 10:45 PM
One thing brought up in this thread that bothered me was the reference to Full Blown or Tour type Modifieds and who enters the tour races at Riverhead, so I researched our archives. For the 2007 race, 10 Riverhead Regulars tried to Qualify, 7 made the Race; for 2006 10 Q, 7 R, 2005 9 Q, 6 R, and 2004 11 Q, 9 R. Pretty good numbers, and I should point out, this did not include LI drivers who only entered tour races and skipped Riverhead on a regular basis. These all look and sound like some pretty impressive numbers to me. Let's keep the Modifieds as we know them at Riverhead, and go to tracks that run SK/SST/TVRMS type cars when we want to see them.

Jeff T
03-03-2008, 06:20 PM
I notice that some people want to merge the LM and Charger divisions, or in some cases, eliminate the LM division. Although good in theory, practically, it would be very difficult to do. Chargers use stock OEM frames,stock OEM floor pans, stock rear end housings, a down sized motor from the LM's, and I'm sure many other many other significant differences between the two divisions. The Late Models used a tube 2X4/2X3 box tube chassis, quick change rears, larger motor, etc. The only similarities that the two divisions share are the aftermarket bodies. The chargers used to be required to use stock factory bodies, but due to cost and availablity, they were allowed to switch to the aftermarket bodies. If you want to continue having a charger class, some time in the near future, they will have to look at allowing box tube chassis' like the Late Models since those factory stock frames are becoming harder and harder to find. If you eventually want to merge these two divisions, the officials should start looking at phasing in this type of chassis into the charger division. If you do that, then you can start talking about the give and take in order to create one division of full bodied race cars, be it called LM or Charger.
I am obviously not in favor of eliminating the Late Model division due to my affiliation with an LM team, but I also don't want to see any division eliminated. Each division is there for a reason. They offer a range of racing for a range of budgets, so that someone can go out and have some fun even if they don't have a ton of money. Each division is also there to provide a driver with different level of experience so that they can start out in a Blunderbust, Figure 8, or Legends class, and work their way up to a Late Model or Modified. JMO

LongIslandJam
03-03-2008, 08:31 PM
Another interesting point came up in my travels this weekend. Most tracks have done away with stock frames. I know the stock frames for Chargers are becoming less abundant (virtually extinct in most junkyards). So, if anything, down the road, the Chargers will be forced to move toward a fabricated frame because they will become more expensive than Late Models chassis-wise. We'll see what happens down the road, but one thing that happens during years is change. And like I said, slow change isn't a bad thing. Heck, if we were still going by the old days, we would be using coupes for Modifieds and running a Non-Ford class, right?

furdogg
03-03-2008, 08:57 PM
your right ja they should go to a full fab charger car....

Biltor57
03-03-2008, 09:41 PM
It cost me more to put a charger clip on than it does to put a late model clip

Hollywood
03-04-2008, 11:06 AM
How about steel head/big carb mods... They are inexpensive to run and as fast as the tour type mods. We lost to them at mountain and Lee NH. There are a lot of these cars sitting around I'm sure.
Phase in the Tube chassis for the Chargers and go to a crate motor. Now you can run anywhere on the east coast and anyone can run here. The problem still is this: Anyone I have spoken to doesn't want to come here because Riverhead is a "rough" track. Hardly ever does a car leave the track without a mark. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but for the payout to expense ratio, no one is traveling here. JMHO

hollywoodmic
03-04-2008, 12:33 PM
I love all the ideas on rule changes. I have a few questions, go to an SK. What happens to all the full blown, $25,000.00 motors? Hollywood you owned a Modified you paid some big bucks for. If someone told you, you couldn't run the motor you already had and you had to buy a new one for $15,000.00 how does that help??? Same premise for the Charger cars w/ crates motors, so I don't think that would work. I do like Rob's idea of a weight break for the Chargers, if you mesh them with the late models, just to start. Fat Albert hit it on the head though use an SK or Charger Motor, stuff that people already have and add the big carberator like the TVMRS series does. Now a Charger guy can buy and older Mod and run with the full blown Mods, and sell his Charger car to someone who wants to get in the division, less motor. Now as a Charger team you would have two options, buy a used rolling Modified chasis or you could add weight to the late models and the Chargers can run with them, it's just more interchangable. DO NOT TOUCH THE TOUR TYPE MODS, that would just destroy the tradition of the place. Riverhead is one of a select few that still run full blown Modifieds in the country, that should never change.

Steve Halpin

Hollywood
03-04-2008, 12:52 PM
"Fat Albert hit it on the head though use an SK or Charger Motor, stuff that people already have and add the big carberator like the TVMRS series does. Now a Charger guy can buy and older Mod and run with the full blown Mods, and sell his Charger car"

Steve this is exactly what I meant...Sorry I wasn't clear.
People already have the steel head motors.. Let them run with the regular mods.. they will be just as fast. Not get rid of the mods as we know them just allow the steel head engines to run. more cars means more pit gate money etc etc....

hollywoodmic
03-04-2008, 12:58 PM
OK great, I was more making that point for the Crate motors. I say use what we already have, and make that work.

Fat Albert
03-04-2008, 01:41 PM
"Fat Albert hit it on the head though use an SK or Charger Motor,

You guys actually agree with me?...AMAZING!

DriveitinDeep
03-04-2008, 06:57 PM
JA,
the cost of what you call the "expensive tubular LM Chassis" is in reality the cheapest thing about the car and the easiest to repair.

btgoss
03-04-2008, 07:45 PM
W.J. thank you for those numbers. I have to admit I am surprised. I really thought the numbers where much lower.

So based on a "normal" field of 24 weekly mods that was about 30% of the weekly guys showing up for the Tour races. You can't count the local Tour guys who drop in on Riverhead for the Tour stop, as they rarely add to the regular car count.

Is 30% a good number? It is more then I thought.

W. J.
03-04-2008, 08:02 PM
Actually, based on weekly average of 'regulars' who raced at Riverhead in 2007, the 10 who attempted to qualify for the WMT race represents 50 - 55%. Carry that out to the actual feature, and 25% of them made it! Good numbers, and one of the reasons some WMT 'regulars' skip Riverhead; it's a tough track to qualify at!

Tower Man
03-05-2008, 07:55 AM
W.J., I have to question your reasoning on "...why tour regulars skip Riverhead..."

Other than last year's "Flash Race", tour regulars do not skip Riverhead because Riverhead is the only track on our schedule that pays cash. Last year's "Flash Race" we were missing some keep teams who refused to run for the reduced purse. Our Riverhead race usually has more cars than any bother race on our schedule. Last year we averaged 45 cars per event.

Traditionally half the Riverhead regulars attempt to qualify for the WMT race at Riverhead and a good number make it. 2/10's of a second was the difference between pole and go homes. Very competitive race.

W. J.
03-05-2008, 08:17 AM
All I said was "one of the reasons", not the only reason.

LongIslandJam
03-05-2008, 10:32 AM
Actually Roger,

My point was that the LM chassis is the cheaper way to go. If the evolution of divisions proves right, Chargers will have to step up eventually to the modern-day era.

And who says Crate motors are the way to go? If they're not policed, then they basically turn into what we have now...

The Bullfather
03-05-2008, 02:47 PM
I think in time they will have to go with the LM chassis also, but at the same need to help bring down prices for the division itself. What started with a post about getting rid of the Late Model division has turned more into combining two divisons because of fabraction reasons! Horsepower is a big difference and has been mentioned about weight advantages for smaller motors.

But we never know if this kinda change will ever happen!

spabler
03-05-2008, 03:52 PM
First off guys great post, best I've seen in quite a while and worth responding to.

In regards to Tour "full blown" mods verses SK mods, weather to add the SK's and keep the tour type, the first point should be clear from earlier on in this thread we already have that type car there is no need for two divisions that are similar. Forget about the SK division coming to Riverhead as the Cromity's are very proud of the fact that they run the tour type mods on a weekly basis. It has been said by them at the banquet many times, at the pre-season meetings by the officials for many years as I can recall. I think the Mod issue is a non issue given this fact.

Now for the sticky issue, the late model verses the charger division, weather to combine or eliminate one or the other. Before I go on let me point out that I have been an owner, sponsor and crew member in both divisions. I admire both divisions and hate to see either go, but as stated in the paragraph prior to this one I don't think it is serving either well that they look similar. Perhaps a change in the look of either would be the simplest solution, keeping one division unique and distinctive from the other. Ask the average, "or new" fan if they can tell the two apart they will tell you no. By the way ask the Cromity's the same question you might be surprised the answer. Don't misunderstand me here, we need this type "full bodied car" as they "the fan" also identifies with them as the cars they see on TV. Combining the two painful perhaps but there are pros and cons to everything, so I will try to point out the positive I'm sure I'll here the negative.

As the chargers go, yes a tube chassis would be an advantage for the following reasons. First, while stock clips and chassis are still available now how long before this becomes a problem. If we phase in a tube chassis now as other tracks have we will not only solve the problem before it happens but we will be on pace with other tracks. Expanding on that thought perhaps by adopting similar rules as these other tracks as to chassis design we may attract more cars to our track. Another advantage with a tube chassis, it is far easier to clip this type car as it is quite laborious to do so with a stock clip, also one can be sure of the integrity and accuracy of the tube clip. The chargers already have or allow floater rears adapting after market hubs both front and rear can be exchanged for the stock type they run to date, although this may be an area the late models may have to conform to the new unified chassis rules as other track rules don't allow the current after market type hubs. The chargers are at a disadvantage as to the length and width of the wheel base, again this can be all but eliminated by adopting a unified tube chassis rule. Give the current chargers a better flowing bolt on aftermarket head, similar tire and bigger carb for now and the divisions can be merged. I think they can and will be more than competitive, as it is the faster charger cars can easily qualify with the late models as there times are that close to date.

As to the late models initially I don't think as much has to change as the chargers have all but caught up to them. Perhaps phase in a lower budget motor will help the two come together. Again reviewing other tracks Late Model rules might be the solution in this area.

I think this goal can be achieved rather quickly given some of my suggestions perhaps two years to completely merged the two divisions without breaking any ones bank and making for better racing all around.

Personally I think having a weekly Tour Type Modified division, Late Model division, Legends, Street Stock or Blunder Bust and alternate the Trucks and Figure Eight divisions until there car counts grow, would be the most manageable and enjoyable show not only for the fan but for the competitors as well. Each division unique as to keep the people interested in what is to come out next. JMO

Paul A Beutler
Spabco Racing
#21 Modified

W. J.
03-05-2008, 04:34 PM
Way more than .02cents, but well said, Paul, thanks for your thoughts.

randomrodder
03-05-2008, 07:53 PM
I'm thankful for what we still have. I'd rather see it stay the way it is then lose the place.

fastfrank88
03-06-2008, 08:12 PM
I am really interested in a sk or a sk light division at riverhead. A lot of other tracks run these two divisions on the same night with no problems. I would like to suggest that this year on the Sunday the last enduro race of the season is scheduled why not advertise a 35 or 50 lap sk or sk light race and see what type of response it creates. If it is a positive one, then maybe for the 09 season, Riverhead could host a 6 week sk or sk light racing series on the Sundays that the enduros run. I love the nascar mods and would not want to see that division down sized to a sk or worse, eliminated, I don't want to see any division eliminated. If these sk type mods are run on a Sunday, the Riverhead mods would not be affected and the track might draw some of the Saturday night mod fans to the track for the Sunday mini series. If this proves to be a profitable venue for the track and they decide to run this series each year it will give the riverhead mod teams a new market place to sell their old equipment. It will also allow the track fuel, parts and tire vendors the ability to make a few extra bucks selling to this new division. I purchased a mod roller at the end of the 07 because of the uncertainty of riverhead's future, if the track will run this series I will purchase another mod and field two cars. I also thought the idea of using a charger motor with a bigger carb was a good one, and maybe even allow us to run a better flowing intake manifold. This would create an affordable avenue for any charger team or anybody else that would want to experience some open wheel racing close to home. If the track thought this is a good idea I will volunteer my time to help the Riverhead staff promote this race and the mini series. I think this thread has allowed us share some interesting ideas, I hope some of you agree with my idea and maybe we could see some open wheel racing on Sundays.
frank scimeca
88 charger

The Bullfather
03-06-2008, 09:24 PM
Waterford runs a "X" mod division on weds. night. They usually run older style mods with hand me down parts and tires. Of course a few guys put more money into them, but they try to be competitive with each other and on a smaller budget.

Tower Man
03-07-2008, 06:56 AM
Riverhead does not need another division. In my opinion a new division, SK or SK Lite, will only water down what we already have.

This is what I think needs to be done and it was done in the past and worked.
1-The Riverhead Raceway PR Department needs to contact drivers/teams who no longer compete and determine why.
2- Once determined, separate those who wish to come back and address their concerns.
3-The head officials need to interact more with key, influential people in each division and have an open mind to suggestions. (Each division has an informal leader who just sits back and plants seeds). Even make incrimental changes to show they are listening.
4-Help financially struggling teams with sponsorship programs & contingency programs. So many contingency programs go unused.
5- Control cost. There is no reason the Trucks, Chargers & Figure 8's are running 3 different types of motor. (There is a reason, but it's absurd).
6- Start the show later, run 5 divisions per night, stick to time limits, shorten victory lane celebrations and WORK TOGETHER!

Pandora's box is officially open for business.

spabler
03-07-2008, 07:16 AM
Frank,
Although I think the SK division would be a good Idea from a competitors stand point, the tracks up north run SK's as the norm and the tour visits, much as they do our track as a special event. We, on the other hand, are unique, as we run the tour mods weekly and have the opportunity to compete with them when the visit us. We are steeped in tradition as far as the mods go and I don't see ANY changes coming soon, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. Unfortunately, if you want to run the SK division, you will have to run elsewhere.

Paul A. Beutler
Spabco Racing
#21 Modified

RGeeProductions
03-07-2008, 08:49 AM
Riverhead does not need another division. In my opinion a new division, SK or SK Lite, will only water down what we already have.

This is what I think needs to be done and it was done in the past and worked.
1-The Riverhead Raceway PR Department needs to contact drivers/teams who no longer compete and determine why.
2- Once determined, separate those who wish to come back and address their concerns.
3-The head officials need to interact more with key, influential people in each division and have an open mind to suggestions. (Each division has an informal leader who just sits back and plants seeds). Even make incrimental changes to show they are listening.
4-Help financially struggling teams with sponsorship programs & contingency programs. So many contingency programs go unused.
5- Control cost. There is no reason the Trucks, Chargers & Figure 8's are running 3 different types of motor. (There is a reason, but it's absurd).
6- Start the show later, run 5 divisions per night, stick to time limits, shorten victory lane celebrations and WORK TOGETHER!

Pandora's box is officially open for business.
BINGO. All very good ideas.
SK's could run with mods but will never be a division.

The Bullfather
03-07-2008, 09:34 PM
This problem was issued last year, but not much changed. Sponsors are a big reason why many or most drivers race!

nascar071
03-08-2008, 04:51 PM
Put the Trucks, Chargers and Figure 8s on the same 8" treaded tire. 1- it will slow the cars down. 2 -less expensive than slicks. 3- they last longer. 4 should make it easier for the tire supplier, not having to stock for 2 divisions. 5- may bring back a few cars ,since the tires are cheaper. 6 (my opinion) makes better racing. Go ahead I'm ready.
Ron Langdon

rydogg97
03-09-2008, 10:38 AM
thats what he seems to do when people disagree with him!!!this was a good thread!!there was an actual disscussion with valid points and shared opinions without nastiness.rgee is one of the more insightful people on the jam and as others his opinions should be respected.

RovinPromotions
03-09-2008, 11:13 AM
You know for some time i have viewed all posts put up on this board by super shafts. And man let me tell you something,you have the right to your opinion as well as I.But most of your posts hinge on the absurd level, with nothing positive for the racing community coming from them. I'm sorry, but at the risk of insulting you [I apologize], please start bringing more positive posts to this web site. I give the sponsors who I sign up this wbsite & if they view the negativity put forth then all my work goes for nothing, and no driver will be happy then.:wave:

jeffrey
03-09-2008, 01:03 PM
look what I started by just saying 6 words.Riverhead should dump the late models.sorry.

RovinPromotions
03-09-2008, 02:03 PM
Now Now Jeffrey dont worry,you do not have to apologize. Your opinion is like all others,just that an opinion. I think you paid the price enough for it. lets keep the post to what is was all about, nothing more.


Vinny :wave:

The Bullfather
03-09-2008, 02:28 PM
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ok now, how about them late models and chargers?!?

Try to get this train back on the tracks! I know many guys who post on this site that race Late Models and Chargers, let get some of their opinions on this matter! Do they think we need change to bring both divisions together, leave it alone or scrap all them all together and start at page one? I know the last one is impossible and would hurt everyone involved.

randomrodder
03-09-2008, 07:43 PM
Boy, this thread took a downward turn and it really was a great thread.

W. J.
03-10-2008, 02:20 PM
Rather than close this post, right here, right now, I'm going to clean it up and get it back onto the subject originally mentioned, Late Models.
My apologies to those whose posts are now deleted, but they never belonged in this thread to begin with. Now this thread is a page shorter!