Are the Riverhead Enduro's safe anymore?

[btgoss]

I'll post this question here since it will more then likely be moved here.

Last Saturday was my first 6 cylinder Enduro at the track. I have seen the Grand Enduro's, and they put on a great show. I hope they can stay that way, they are like the Bombers from Freeport, and honestly should almost be a weekly part of the show. Just great racing.

Now that enduro Saturday night. That was just scary. Too few cars means very high speeds, and the potential (realized to a certain extent) for someone to get hurt.

Are the 4 cylinder races the same way? Or are the 6's just in a weird spot being fairly small and having relatively powerful motors?

Can someone help with my Enduro education?

[rabbid1]

I think they're safer now than they used to be. Sure there are less cars but most of the drivers are there to race and they race fairly clean. The speeds are pretty quick , So If your worried you can always throw a cage , racing seat with a 5 point harness along with a window net.

[fisherman]

I'll post this question here since it will more then likely be moved here.

Last Saturday was my first 6 cylinder Enduro at the track. I have seen the Grand Enduro's, and they put on a great show. I hope they can stay that way, they are like the Bombers from Freeport, and honestly should almost be a weekly part of the show. Just great racing.

Now that enduro Saturday night. That was just scary. Too few cars means very high speeds, and the potential (realized to a certain extent) for someone to get hurt.

Are the 4 cylinder races the same way? Or are the 6's just in a weird spot being fairly small and having relatively powerful motors?

Can someone help with my Enduro education?

maybe some people should just race there matchbox cars. oh wait you might hurt your finger

[btgoss]

maybe some people should just race there matchbox cars. oh wait you might hurt your finger

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

[btgoss]

I think they're safer now than they used to be. Sure there are less cars but most of the drivers are there to race and they race fairly clean. The speeds are pretty quick , So If your worried you can always throw a cage , racing seat with a 5 point harness along with a window net.

This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. Is the need to mandate that equipment already here? Should all of the Enduro division become something more like the Grand's? (cages, race seats, that type of thing.)

You get too many people hurt (or God forbid worse) and pretty soon no one is racing.

[vsmidge68]

I think part of the problem with the 4 & 6 cyl. enduros are SOME of the drivers attitudes...They seem to get enduros mixed up with demos..Enduro is short (so to speak) for endurance. The cars are supposed to ENDURE long races and live to race another day.. The saturday night shows seem to be the worst due to the excitement of racing under the lights mixed with many of the guys visiting the coolers or the beer booth prior to racing. I've seen this happen a few times, but the only way to stop it is to give each driver a breathylizer (spelling?) test before the race. That can't possibly happen so the only thing to do is to hope for the best. I hope everyone notice that I said SOME of the drivers...I was not there Saturday night and cannot comment on one particular incident. This of course is JMO..

[The Bullfather]

6 and 8's don't bother me as much...the 4's are wicked fast and barrel through the turns as high speed, in small compact cars.

[A69pizzoo]

Well I was not at the 6 cyl race on Saturday night but I was told it was a mess. What I can tell you is that 4cyl races are very fast paced and unfortunately it is the easiest style car to get your hands on, so you have a tendency to find more people who just don't care at all and want to see wrecks. I also race in the stock 8cyl division. Out there you don’t find too many people who just gut and run. Most of the guys actual care enough to build a car and race it. But either way I don't care what division it is you will have some nuts that will just turn you because you’re fast. I think the 4/6cyl truck and grand’s are excluded from that. I run a five point harness, fire suit, some sort of cross bar between the door pillars and I also run the approved rub rails...

[The Bullfather]

Grands and Trucks put on a great show!

[CJfilms]

As it is the dire question within all enduro racing....

Safer or cheaper?

Safer is more expensive....cheaper is less safe....
Cheaper brings more cars....expensive chases cars....

No real way to win this arguement. My sensible solution, build your car so that it is SAFE....period. If you know you are cutting corners somewhere, you will NOT only hurt yourself, but the future of enduros.... For example, once one person is hurt for not having a proper safety restaint system in place, the rules have to be changed to include a 4/5 point harness....etc....

On the other side of the fence, as a promoter, I can't promote cheap and affordable racing if we have 10-15 cars...at least not SAFE, cheap and affordable racing. IF the car counts were 60+ each division, the speeds are going to be naturally slower, especially at the start of the race where most of the cars don't even survive. If I know I have 60+ cars in each division, I know that safety is an issue, but we can relax a few of our standard rules that have been applied to the 15 car-count situation....

It's just a theory....more cars = less speed, less expensive safety standards = cheap affordable racing, larger car counts. So, if everyone wants those good 'ol days of a 100/200+ field of cars on the track at once....you the drivers need to get involved and get others involved. I always beleived that if we have a field of even 25 cars one race....if everyone brings one more friend/car, now we would have a 50 car count at the next race...quite simple in theory! :wave::rolleyes::lol:

[cerckl'm racing]

I'm going to assume this thread was started in part due to an apparent injury during the race. I, like many people there, thought the flag was thrown for the stalled car at the third turn gate getting pounded twice so I didn't see what happened, but it was in fact for a car rolling thru the infield - one of the biggest (safer?) cars out there (a mid-eighties Monte from what I could tell.)

Does anyone know how she is?

[W. J.]

I thought that whole situation involved the car in turn 3 also. While no information has been released on the driver, it was reported that she had been knocked unconscious. Adding to the strangeness of it all, the car was driven to the pits after she had been removed to the ambulance to be checked over. The car had little apparent damage, so it must have been one of those odd situations where something freak occurred to the driver.
Safety is the number one item that needs to be addressed with any racing. I actually know of a driver who had himself fitted for a HANS Device before ever entering his first enduro. Smart move.
As Joe said, higher car counts reduce speed, which reduces, but does not eliminate the chance of injury. Having witnessed the early days of enduros,where 100+ car counts were the norm, speeds there never seemed to exceed 35 MPH due to the high number of cars everyone had to dodge just to make a lap. Those days are long gone.
Roll bars, padding (lots of it) and good safety belts will prevent most injuries, but speed needs to be reduced, either through wetting the track, or by requiring a minimum car count of 50 or more before an event is scheduled. How do that? I really don't know, because car counts can't be guaranteed.

[The Bullfather]

For the most part the safer cars (which means more money) usually run the best! Also the driver is a lot smarter in safety and skills!

Which probably means they learned from experience!

[racenut38]

I was in the car in turn 3 I'm fine and the car will run again.As for the girl in the other car I have not heard.The chance of getting hurt is there but its worth the thrill. I feel safer out on the track then I do on the Highway. 9 times out of 10 if someone gets into you it's not on purpose. Lets be safe and have fun.:cool:

[btgoss]

I hadn't started this thread in direct response to the accidents in last Saturday's Enduro.
I had not seen a "regular" Enduro at Riverhead in years, only having seen the Grand Enduros race.
I was honestly surprised at the general speed of the 6 cylinder cars. I know Enduro racing is going to provide a wild range of driving talent and styles, but the speed range was really a surprise. I was just wondering if you see the same thing in the 4 cylinders, and apparently it is worse.
It is never popular to say that there should be more rules, but maybe this means the concept of the original Enduro is no longer valid. Without being able to have the large fields maybe it just isn't safe anymore to run with a truly stock car.

Couldn't rules be written to keep the cars completely stock for that make and model, while allowing a full cage and other safety equipment? Or is this not realistic?

[A69pizzoo]

The only bad part about making rules for cages and other devices is now you costing the drivers more money. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea but car counts are down as it is if you force these safety devices to be mandatory you’re just going to see fewer cars. I think five point harnesses should be mandatory. But full cages would lower car counts even more.

[LongIslandJam]

Any race car is as safe as you make it. Do you buy the cheap helmet or the more expensive, safer one? Do you get a used basic seat that doesn't even fit or do you opt for a full-containment custom seat like one from Joie of Seating? The list goes on and on...

Also - a more expensive car is not necessarily a safer one. I'm willing to bet that there's an enduro car much safer than some cars in premier regional (and national) series. If you don't believe me, email me for some examples I have from my journeys around tracks this year.

For anyone that wants to upgrade their safety, give Dennis of Oval Speed a call. With his expert knowledge, he can guide you for the best safety you can buy within your budget. A better helmet, a better seat, and even a better suit will increase your safety dramatically for a few extra dollars.

[racing#s]

I've been doing the Enduros since 89/90 ?...forgot it's been so long.
One BIG lesson I learned is to not cut corners on safety.
I was drilled once when parked and the factory seat on the full size Monte
got ripped out of the rusty floor. I was in the middle of the track,sitting on the pass.side floor,tangled in the factory seatbelt,peeking out my pass.side window looking at the cars coming full speed.Luckilly,it was at the end of the race,and I wasn't further damaged or hit.But,right then and there I decided to get all the safety stuff(recommended) as per the rules. The Aluminum racing seat is great to have,(sometimes the factory seat-back can sometimes flatten with a rear-end impact).BUT-the seat you buy is transferrable from car to car,and -re-sellable- ! A window harness is so cheap,every car should have one.A firesuit,(avail.2d hand),relativelly cheap,and also,-re-sellable-.The factory seatbelt is a joke,agreed w/Pizzo,the 5 point harness should be mandatory.They're available second hand,can be found for <>$50 bucks used,and -re-sellable-.A cage,yes,is expensive,especially if built and installed,but again,re-sellable after installed.I bought mine 2d hand for $150.The money is definetely not fun to spend,but it's your own butt your investing the money in,a priceless investment.If you purchase the items,one at a time,over time,it's not so bad.

[btgoss]

I agree that adding the cages would lower car count initially...but.. wouldn't having a division with very strict yet completely stock rules allow for some growth over time.
If there was, let's say an OEM Stock for make and manufacturer 4 cylinder division, only safety modifications allowed, you don't think that division would grow? Isn't this sort of what has happened with the Grand Enduros? (although I do not know if the rules are that strict, so I could be wrong on that point.)
By making the cars more expensive, they are safer and you drive away the lunatics (mostly), so you build a nice sustainable Enduro division.
I know it wouldn't be a "true Enduro" car anymore, but maybe that is just what should happen.

[quadrace13]

Money is the key to all of this, i was lucky enough to be given a truck already set up. Thanks Gregor Racing. if that wasnt the case i certainly would not be racing in the truck class. i would most likely have found a cheep 4 or 6cyl car to gutngo with. to some people an extra couple hundred for cages and harness' doesnt seem like much, but for a night or 2 of fun its alot of work and prep. esp for those who dont do much mechanic work. there's a big difference between changing a tire and welding in a cage, and installing a 5 point correctly.
i am certain that car counts are already down because of the money situation. yes it is reasonable to enter a car or truck to race, but you also usually have to pay for your friend, or significant other to also attend the race to count for you. and we all know that they dont wana be the only ones sitting in the stands alone while we mess around in the pits getting ready for the race... i believe transponders would bring alot more people to the track! someone can just bring their car and race it, their wife and kids can actually enjoy watching you race insead of watching a clock and a clip board..

if you start making it manditory for extra safety equiptment numbers will definately drop.. we all cant race, race cars, some of us wana race cheep enduro cars.


:cheers:

[RGeeProductions]

You are right, many do want to run cheap cars. All you need is that one time and then you will realize that safety is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than cheap!!!!

[CIN]

I'm going to just give my opinion on this: 1. Car counts: part of the reason that car counts for the enduro divisions are down; scrap prices...it used to be that you could get a car for 50 bucks. With the prices of scrap who is going to pay a few hundred to gut and go a car. With that said, if you're going to spend a few hundred on a car for an enduro, why not make it as safe as you can so that you CAN race it another day.
Now as to safety, back in the day early 90's, when Rich decided that this was something he wanted to do we talked about it and said that it was more important to have a good helmet (if you have a Kmart head then buy a Kmart helmet), a racing seat (doesn't have to be expensive, just one that fits you, and you take that with you to any other car that you build), a 5 point harness (to keep your butt in the seat), a fuel cell (my insistance, didn't want to see him burnt), and some sort of cage (in the beginning it wasn't roll cage, they welded bars for safety)
Those were the days of 100+ cars on the track. Those were the days of people just taking people out for the hell of it.
I (and he) wanted to enjoy racing but wake up the next morning to talk about it.
If this is something that you want to do, then over the off season start buying the things that you need. That's what we did. Or there's always Christmas, your birthday, etc....
Yes the enduros are the entry level division. Yes they do not require the money that the other divisions require but when it comes to your personal safety it's up to you. And it's YOUR choice. How much ARE YOU worth.
As for those that say they are not mechanically inclined or don't know how to weld blah, blah, blah....there are plenty of guys and shops out there (mine included) that are willing to help.
And just to let those that don't know: Rich's car that he ran at Riverhead and up and down the NE, had 130 races on it. Sure it didn't really look like a Monte Carlo anymore (nicknamed Bag of Walnuts), but it was still going after he died.
Look, stuff happens, whether you have a gut and go car or a cup car with the most expensive of equipment....you can get hurt. Just have to decide how important YOU are. And if you don't want to worry about getting hurt, then sit in the stands...but watch that too, if it's your day for something bad to happen you might just get hit by a bolt of lightening.

Don't ask for the track to make YOUR decisions. You have a brain, make it yourself.

And to those that keep saying enduros arent' racing or move up to Saturday nite to really race......I've been on both sides now....between the fact that most guys on Saturday nite are scrambling for sponsorship and the constant fighting that goes on from the minute you get there till after you leave, I'll stick with the enduros. And most of the guys in the enduro's are there because they WANT to be. They like the schedule. They like the fact that they don't have to beg for money from people. And as to BB & Chargers...rather do Grand Enduros....50 laps non stop racing, less money and no duking it out in the pits (well there was once).

Sorry this is so long. Have just kept my mouth shut for so long now and I just can't take it any longer.

[W. J.]

All good points, CIN. The best is "What are YOU worth?" Safety items cost, but the most important ones are transferable to another car if necessary. If your safety isn't important to you, if you don't care if you are healthy enough to show up for work the next day to earn money to pay your bills, then gutngo the car, cross your fingers, say a small prayer, and go for it.
Everyone else, do what you have to to protect yourself, drive with some amount of respect, and have fun in your SAFE car. One good crash will show you the value of the safety equipment you have. $500 worth of safety equipment, and you walk away = priceless! :)

[RickFigure8]

I agree with CIN too. I feel all cars should have some sort of hoop and drivers side door bars. Turning sideways and getting hit in one of those cars is no different than someone running a stop sign on the street and running in to another car and how often is someone injured there. All regular racing divisions at Riverhead have to replace the 5 point belts every two years so there has to plenty of still very good belts all around for the enduro guys to pick up cheaply.

[CIN]

While I'm on a roll...sorry...
I enjoy all divisions out there. So please don't anyone think that I'm putting anyone down. There is a place for each and everyone of you that wants to strap in behind the wheel and go for it. But to me, any division, is just not something you wake up one morning and say hey I'm going out there today. If you want to try even an enduro, do YOUR research. Come out to the track. Spend the money on a Sunday to get into the pits and talk to all the guys. BELIEVE ME they all like to talk about racing. Do your homework. Find out where YOU would fit in. Come out on Saturday. Talk to the Saturday night guys too. They also are more than willing to talk. (And no, no one is going to give up ALL their secrets) Figure out where YOU fit in. Then start planning. Anyone who thinks for a minute that in any division I don't care what, that you can go out there and just win, should stick with lotto.

Take it upon yourself to do what needs to be done for YOU! It can be loads of fun.

There's a huge off season. Do what needs to be done. And don't ask the track to make things manditory or ***** and complain that he has this or can do this and that and I can't. It's like all the people out there waiting for the government to make their lives better. Do it for yourself. Hell if I can learn all this stuff so can anyone else. And if there is something I don't know, I ask.

It's up to you. No one is forcing you to do anything. Just know effort equals results. The guys that are winning, even in the enduros, do exactly that. They put the safety in their cars. They get the necessary equipment for themselves. And they work on their cars. Check things over. LEARN. Watch. But most of all have fun and live to talk about it the next day.

And to buy stuff, like was said before: there are swap meets, there are guys that have stuff laying around willing to sell, there is new: Summit and all the race equipment places.

Just figure out what is IMPORTANT!

[woot lawrence]

window net from summit racing -$20
20 foot of pipe from home depot -$20
used 5 point racing harnes from e-bay- $50
fire suit from summit racing -$75
walking away from an enduro to race another day- priceless :cheers:

[CJfilms]

Basically....what Cindy has stated here is the bottom line.

It is your butt out there, you should be concerned about protecting yourself... But, nowadays, with prices for anything being UP UP UP, drivers begin to weigh out what they believe they will need for the race.... Everyone here HAS A STORY, I know it for a fact that it is everyone not just a few. Everyone has a reason for wanting X-safety device. Some people believe the cage is the most important, others belive the restaint system is key....and some people still believe that the factory built options are sufficient for them. Either way, we the promoters have to weight out the guidlines and decide where to draw lines on safety minimums...

In the end, when someone builds a $1,000 roll cage and walks away from a wreck, they feel they succeeded...and the other driver who walks away with only a 5-point harness and no cage ALSO feels like they have succceeded.

Everyone likes/wants to see the 100+ car fields, but as WJ even said here, there is no way to guarantee car counts. If we advertise $10,000 to 1st place, we may get 100 cars....but until we hit registration #100, the safety standards have to be quite high in the case only 35 show up and 20 of those cars have illegal/oversized motors in them...

Other options like wetting the track down work only for X-laps before it dries up and the speeds pick up.....the downfall is that while the track is wet, the unlucky drivers who do wreck out early now clear a very open path for the surviving cars to really push the speeds once the track dries. Instead of creating a slower race, this eventually creates a very high speed race with fewer cars than there would have been in the first place.

Safety is the main concern. Without drivers, we would not have the races in the first place. Without the cars...well, we can always host a push and shove foot race! :lol:

[Jaws]

window net from summit racing -$20
20 foot of pipe from home depot -$20
used 5 point racing harnes from e-bay- $50
fire suit from summit racing -$75
walking away from an enduro to race another day- priceless :cheers:


Woot,

Good points on the prices, but I would never recommend the $75.00 fire suit, their rating is very low and they only give minimal protection for the least amount of time (I think I read somewhere 3-5 seconds). While it is better than regular clothes, if you are injured and require a little more time to get out you do have a good chance of getting burned.

[don38]

Good point Jaws, a good fire suit is not cheap. But you can get good nomex underwear much cheaper then a good fire suit. Thats what i run with under my suit. Also another good safty item that i dont see to many drivers have is a neck collar. $35 to save you neck. wouldnt have it any other way.

[CJ MOTORSPORTS]

Very well said cindy !

Please Read cindy`s post and then read it again ! Safety is number 1 ! Remember that this is a full contact sport. I would like to add something that i notice from some enduro drivers - PLEASE Wear full clothing under that fire suit !! I see driver`s with no shirt on under that fire suit - Remember that layers of clothing will help buy you time . You can purchase fireman nomex underware for around $30 - cheap investment for your butt. Be safe and come back to race again ! Take the time and look at other cars to see some of the safety items installed. some are not that expensive - you are welcome to come see my son`s car and talk with me about safety - #92 grand enduro. I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO HELP !!

SCOTT

[vsmidge68]

As a mom the best birthday gift I could have bought for my son was the complete set : Firesuit(2 piece), gloves, neck brace and simpson shoes. I think with shipping it cost a total of $300. I'm pretty sure it was from Jeg's or Summit. Like Cindy said, you have Christmas and birthdays. Anything can happen on the track, but it feels better knowing you've done what you can to protect yourself. The only thing you need to remember when buying belts second hand, some divisions have a date rule..check the dates stamped on them and make sure they are up to the rules...

[Crazy Horse]

I found that the drivers that took the time and the money to build a safe racecar or racetruck were the drivers that drove with RESPECT towards their fellow competitor.MOST of the time,their will always be the RACER looking to get to the track safe and return home safe with their equipment in one piece.than there's the $***head who has a buzz on thinking he's joe cool in front of his friends, just there to prove he is a freak'n MORON :mad:.have SAFETY rules and weed out the MORONS.:mad:just my opinion.

[spikeybabe22]

Honestly this is my first year racing the enduros @ RR. I am running Gene Burbols Lumina from previous years...with a cage and harness and honestly I LOVE the 6 cyl enduros..I think they have the best bunch of people in it....out to have fun....I mean of course there are better drivers who have been doing it for years....sean w....haegar...gene...etc....i would drive with these guys all the time....sometimes is it all fair and by the rules? No....but i think what happened to the girl in the blue monte was a freak thing...i didnt even see her hit anything...just backwards a couple times...hopefully she is ok....

As previous posts have said Safety is # 1. Fire suit, roll cage, harness, are thebest things....oh window net too! It is not required but if you are worried about safety it is a good idea....no matter what size car you have 4,6,8....anything can happen.
Overall, for my first season it has been going great...know that i have the driving down...i need a faster car... :-)

[Jaws]

Enduro racing....hmmm. I remember the days you prayed a race would break out 110 cars did not leave too much room for racing. I should know, I think I started 109th and was 2 laps down before I turned a lap...lol ah those were the days!