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View Full Version : New Rules...Old Rules....YOUR Rules...



CJfilms
07-25-2011, 08:19 AM
I heard a complaint yesterday, I'll leave the person unidentified, regarding the NEETS rules...and frankly I agree with him.

The complaint was that the NEETS Rules are getting out of hand and the COST to build and maintain a car with stock features by OUR rules is sky rocketing and it's "Getting ridiculous"..."We're building race cars"...

I agree that the costs to build/maintain cars is going up....both economically and by what our rules mandate...but, where do we find relief?

First and foremost, this DOES NOT INVOLVE SAFETY REGULATIONS!!!!
Safety comes first and that is that....

The biggest issue here is that I believe WE the officials are going about creating the RULES the wrong way... The past two years we have held a rules meeting at the end of the season to let drivers discuss and suggest rules...typically 25-35 people would attend... Since we started letting the DRIVERS opt-in and opt-out certain regulations/specifications, we've seen a decline in car counts and an increase in car construction/maintenance costs...

Should WE, the officials, re-write the rules as we see fit and hand them down once and for all...no discussion?

- or -

Continue to hold a rules meeting allowing drivers to alter some rules as they are the ones who are primarily affected by the change?

We've always tried to work WITH you the driver to allow whatever idea you may have a chance to fly... Secondary radiators...trans coolers...rims...vacuum...ride height...etc... I want to see that you're happy with the rules and not just say "it is what it is...". Remember, you have to abide by them!

The rules used to be VERY general and left wide open with gray areas...we've been slowly trying to weed out some of these gray areas, but every now and then Rick, Tech Official, will come up to me and say... "Driver of the #XX Car is running whatever part and it's not stock...but it is not in our rule book to say otherwise...this is giving him a big advantage...before he had this he was finishing top 15 each race, now he won two in a row...his lap times have increased by a few seconds and nothing else has been changed on the car". Rick will approach drivers with caution almost negotiating legality of the part just to prevent a DQ even before the race, however there is a limit on how much can be done.... When a part is not legal...it is not legal. When the car pulls 14 inches of vacuum...it is not legal. We've given drivers the opportunity to make things right in the car after a race...as in, bring it back to the way it ran on the track...NOT A CHANCE TO MAKE IT LEGAL...

All of this can go away and we can make the rules a one page rulebook again and just say "Cars must be stock - legality determined by Tech Official"...period... A lot of people will be complaining about who is running what part off of what other car and there may not be anything we can say about it since the rules will be so broad....ask Uncle Petey about abuse of those gray areas!

As always....it is YOUR series, you choose how you want the rules to go for next year. One thing though...no matter what happens, we will NOT be putting rules in place that will force everyone to change their cars around......

CJfilms
07-25-2011, 09:57 AM
As always....let's hear your feedback....all is welcome! But, please don't come on here just to bash or call out someone for what they've done or how they built their cars....

punchy
07-25-2011, 08:47 PM
I am not the techy person obviously I leave that to my boys but isnt a so called stock race car....just that? STOCK? So why cant it be that way , why do people have to change things that in most eyes causes them to cheat? Its supposed to be a fun entertaining hobby! I dont know maybe I am wrong or look at it different than the big boys! JMO

jag
07-25-2011, 09:09 PM
I for one can not compete against cars that buy crate motors and send the heads out to be worked before ever even running it. I do this just for the fun of it and as cheap as i can.If it stops being fun then it gets parked or sold.The playing field is not very even right now and wont be if the rules dont tighten up on what is stock and what is aftermarket parts.JMO Other than that thanks to Joe for giving me something constructive to do once a month,Jag out.

richardpetey
07-25-2011, 10:21 PM
The NEETS rulebook is OK...........................:cool:
Since most rules are subject to Interpretation and Intent it creates a "grey area" which is governed by your tech official...............:rolleyes:
At the end of every set of rules usually are two equalizers in favor of the series.........................:help:
The first is: If you don't see it in the rules ask your tech man if its legal.................................:*-(
The second is: The rules will be adjusted to compensate for overcompetitive cars............................:angel:
Considering that the faster big cars were running lap times in the low to mid 19's last year and this year the quicker cars are in the low 20's
something is happening to slow the cars down, so I gotta believe its either screwed up transponder scoring or tech is slowing you guys down.....................................:confused :
Just remember the things that the rules don't control are things like your determination to win, the time you spend on the repair and maintenance and how much money you spend on your car...................................:cheers:
UNCLE PETEY.................................:wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

tbirdracer
07-26-2011, 12:17 AM
even if i am not racing with neets i know you guys do good with checking the cars. i know some are putting more in their motor then i do with my whole car. rules are rules! some guys over power the track and a stock 305 can out run the more powerful motor. Joe the drivers help with the rules but neets is run by you. car counts are down but the true racers are there for you. when i first race you all ran stock cars and had fun but some racers have to one up the next. as long as you have fun and know you follow the rule be proud of yourself

BIGDADDY64
07-26-2011, 04:27 PM
From our shop which fields 6 Neets car both big and small,we have finished from 3rd on back and luck has alot to do with it. Clearly we feel there have been a few cry babes though each race including us but clearly some rules have more effects then other. Watching videos month after month clearly there are a few faster cars, meaning a few of the same cars differ ( Monte to Monte) does this mean they got a good run? not always.
We think Radiator rules could be ok if need bigger if it keeps us racing longer.But no one needs to get burnt by doing the in the car thing. Ouch that would hurt! Rims or tires width ? if tire sizes rule stands, rims really make little differance and a free 8" rim is still a free rim! So keeping it cheap is first for everyone. Shocks and Springs we noticed a few high cars just like ours...... why? We like every rule that keeps it cheap, rules that make saftey sense and keep the cars on the track equal for less. we'd like that way.

Maddawg
07-29-2011, 09:37 PM
First off, keep it Safe, Simple , and cheap !!! I personally like the old "rusty bolt rule" and keeping them "Stock". Lose the racing springs,and shocks, keep them on 7" wheels. I understand some "rules" were modified to bring cars from other tracks, but this is your series, and at Grandview..... If guys and gals from other tracks want to come race in NEETS then they should adjust to your rules.. If they don't then handicap them>>> make them WANT to change to your rules.
Secondly, besides enduro's I own 2 factory stocks that my son and I raced at a track up North.. alot of time and money went into those cars, and yes they have big motors ect.. now when I'm doing my thing in the pits before an enduro and I hear some of these so called "stock" motors fire up and they sound as good as or better than my "race" motors there is definately something not right going on.. hmmmmm, I know maybe I'll just put one of my race motors in my enduro car ... with a big "stock" spacer plate under the carb, fill up the cell with some racing fuel $ 700 a gallon. lock the rear, slap on a set of american racers, buy some penske shocks , slap on a set of mono balled trailing arms , some weight jackers, ect.....
Nah, that just wouldn"t be any fun , what fun is ---is wrestling a 3200 lb car ( that really is not designed for racing) in stock configuration around a muddy, bumpy track with some of the best people I have met in my life..
Maddawg
417-14-12-21

CJfilms
08-01-2011, 09:35 AM
On the other side of the fence, I'm going to throw this out there for consideration...

I have a few quotes and a few drivers I'm going to pick on...but in a good way!

#75 Howie Bott - Next time you see Howie's car running, go talk to him...WHILE IT IS RUNNING. The motor turns very smoothly and quietly. "You can place a glass of water on his air filter and it won't spill". His motor sounds like a stock motor, its a very smooth "vrrrrrrrrr" type of sound rather than the guys who are pushing the motor to it's limits and sound like a race motor with that trademarked "bop be da bop be da...." sound where you can hear every piston fire... Howie has a VERY stock motor and when he stays out of trouble he has no problem making his way to the front.

#5 Tim Pauch - Timmy is the guy to beat apparently as he is working on his 3rd straight championship. Everyone usually calls out Timmy before they say anything about anyone else...."he's got something going on in that car, it can't be legal"... Maybe it is...maybe Timmy is putting more effort into his enduro car than some put into their race cars??? Ask Timmy if you can look in his trunk some time...he has notes from damn near every race he has ever used that car for on his trunk lid and fuel cell... He knows how to set up that car just from racing so many places. All he has to do is follow his own notes.

#43 Uncle Petey - He has been called Cheaty Petey and supposedly DQ'd from every track and almost every race he has ever competed in...... If ALL those rumors were true then he must have stolen those hundreds of trophies and championships over the years from more than a dozen speedways!!! Petey knows the rules as well as he knows they "Grey Areas" because, truthfully, if it is not illegal...it must be legal. NEETS however put a clause in our rules that states that if it is not in the rule books "DO NOT ASSUME IT IS LEGAL". Petey doesn't cheat other drivers out of their win or efforts, however if the track leaves a WIDE OPEN gap in their rules and Petey knows how to use it to his advantage...would you not take advantage as well?

My favorite quotes:
"Why are you penalizing me for doing my homework?"
"You're building race cars."
"The rules are getting to be too much."
"Oh well, you gave him a free pass so I should get one too."
"It's getting too expensive."

Fist off, Dave Bentley Jr. is the one who said the first one about being penalized for doing his homework...and he's right... He won 4 out of 8 races his first year at Grandview... He wasn't just getting lucky and winning by chance, he was setting that car up to win....every race!

There is also another quote that applies to Dave there about the free pass. One race we found an exhaust header in Dave's car...he claimed it was stock, we said no....giving HIM the benefit of a doubt, we claimed the header to review it under the manufacturer's production line and found it to be a stock part...legalizing it by the rules, however at the time WE had 2 rules that conflicted. One rule stated no headers and another said all parts must be stock. With that in mind, Dave kept the win and a rule was put in place that said if a cast iron part is available it must be installed even if the car came with headers....

There are three things you will never beat on the track:
Homework
Seat-time
Determination

Timmy for example...again...
Homework
Not only does he have notes about each and every race that he raced in...he treats his car like a full blown modified! Everything that can be checked and maintained is checked and maintained...I've heard countless drivers say they started working on the car last night... We have a good 3-4 weeks between each race, why did you let it sit so long untouched? You knew you had to change oil, re-fill the tank, fix a leak, flush the radiator, pop some dents, pull the tires off and check all the bearings, springs, struts, bars, arms, brakes, lines, levels, etc....why wait a month each time and then say HE's cheating because he is 4 laps ahead of you....

Seat-time
Timmy has had that car RACING for over 15 years...not just sitting behind the shed as a back up...RACING IT! He knows what that car can do, knows its limits, knows when it doesn't handle and when to push it... No one is going to get behind the wheel and go at it with him and be able to do what he does in their first year. Look at Kyle Killian, #17K, first time in that car at Grandview and he pulled a top 5!!! That's great!!! But, he's not cocky about it....he knows he will have to race for years to be on the same level as a lot of the rest of our drivers, but he may still pull out a win THIS SEASON!!! He has skill, there's no denying that...but he still needs seat-time and that must be earned BEHIND THE WHEEL....not from watching, not from working on the car...

Determination
When the rush comes on and there is only a few laps left and one pass away from winning.....who's going to pace themselves then? NO ONE! Timmy paces himself all the way to the front of the pack, but when we've at lap 85 and 2nd place is either right behind him, he creates some more space...when he's running 2nd and 1st place is a 1/4 track ahead and running into lapped traffic, he shortens that lead real quick! Again, homework and seat-time work together at this moment because that car was built to hold together and he knows what it can do to get around those lapped cars and take the lead on the final lap....and we have all seen it done time after time....

Final lesson here has nothing to do with the rules...
1 - Know your car...do your homework and research the car, it's parts, defects and replacement parts...
2 - Keep track of your efforts; where you start and finish, fastest times, tire pressures, amount of fuel, temperatures, pressures, how it handled, springs, camber, etc... Keep track of it all...
3 - Stay in the moment and know WHEN to go fast and HOW to go fast...most people pass for position in the turns, not drag racing down the straights...

All of this means little to nothing if you don't have a solid set of rules to go by....Our rules have gotten more and more detailed to keep drivers on the same level...some drivers however know how to stay ahead of the curve from experience...some try to find a grey area that will work to their advantage.

Speed = nothing...if you can't handle the car
Handling = nothing...if you sacrifice all of your speed
Enduro = endurance....
If your car won't stay together (bumpers, tires, hood/trunk, etc......motor, trans, brakes.....leaking fuel, oil, trans fluid, cooling system....) then it doesn't matter how fast or well-handling your car is....

Find that happy medium....but for now, let's stay focused on the rules...
General rule books = lots of grey areas
Specific rules books = people complaining the rules are getting too strict or we are building race cars

CJfilms
08-01-2011, 09:46 AM
One last thing....

Cheap!!!

Keeping things cheap also means opening rules up for allowances. Someone has a car they got at a good price that came with XX part that is illegal, but it will cost $1,000 or more to buy a legal part....what do you do? Race it illegal and cheap or spend the money and see if you have a winning car?

Easiest thing to do is experiment...race illegal and take the DQ...at least you know it'll win! I'm not telling you to go out and cheat, but if you want to see if you have a winning car BEFORE you spend a big chunk of change....don't be upset when the black flag falls in tech....

This doesn't apply to drivers who have been racing the same car for years....don't make it illegal just to say you won a race..........that's when we will strip points...

CJfilms
08-08-2011, 09:28 AM
Maddawg noted handicapping drivers who don't abide by our rules...

I've been saying this for a while now! I've been saying write our rules as the rules...if someone wants to race with us from XX speedway and not have to change motor parts, suspension, etc...then we make some minor adjustments FOR THEM and allow them to race.

If a BD enduro car cannot compete with us any longer because of rule differences, make a concession and allow them to race...starting XX laps down, by adding weight, doing XX to the car beforehand... If they place in a paying position, they will have to pass their own rule book's technical inspection and have whatever we did to the car in place still at the end of the race.... That sounds like a winning situation to me... First and foremost, they have to be there to even be racing with us...less cars is eventually going to mean even fewer cars.

Also, someone noted that drivers are changing tires and wrenching the motors just before a the race....WHY?

Pits open at 8 AM....I understand the guy caught in traffic arriving at 12:15 is going to be looking over his car....but why are there some cars that have 4-5 people jumping under the hood just before the race with different parts/tires going on the car? This has to stop....we'll figure out a way to make it happen from an administrative standpoint, however I recommend YOU see it stop before I have to...

rockinrick120
08-08-2011, 10:18 PM
Your right this is a hobby, however like any hobby there are costs associated with it. You can spend $600 on a junk yard motor that you have no idea what you are getting or you can spend $2000+ and get your motor done. NOT cheated up just new parts (ie,rods,pistons,bearings ect). By the time you pay someone to put it together if you cant do it yourself it is alot. It is all a personal choice, I started racing at bridgeport and the first thing I needed was seat time,once i got that I wanted to be competitive.Couldnt stand being a lap down after 3 or 4 laps.There is a reason certain people (Pauch,Hires) are always up front. They can flat out drive.Dirt racing is at the minimum 50/50 car/driver. If you look at mylaps i bet that almost every race fast lap car is not the winner.Consistency is everything. The rules are fine now or as they were,it should be real simple stock is stock.I was at 2 tracks that killed classes by constantly allowing more and more stuff. It SUCKS!!! You follow the rules and then something gives big advantage to a few and you either do it or settle for being further behind.Example for us is the "racing springs". Are you really going to trust your car to 20-30yr old springs? No you are going to get new if you want your car to handle and guess what if you can even get them from Pep Boys your not even going to save hardly any money. The "racing springs" all mount the same stock way and almost every car we race had a cop or sport version with beefier springs anyway. Sorry for the rambling,I greatly enjoy the series and cant wait to get back out there.
Rockin Rick

DerbyN8-128
08-21-2011, 09:49 PM
I have seen some demo derby organizations run themselves into the ground because they kept changing rules to accommodate SOME people or because SOME people thought they should allow this or allow that. Other drives who would normally keep it STOCK had no chance against the always changing rules and changes, the guys who could sweet talk or pay their way through the system were the only cars left on the track. If you set the rules and keep them that way, people may complain, but you will keep the guys around that just want to go out there and have a blast racing. It's the overly competitive people who usually request the changes, the "here for a good time" guys just go with the flow until it gets out of hand, then move onto something else.

In my opinion the rules right now are the best I have seen them so far since I became interested in this series. However, I feel that the officials need to re-take control of the series, lock the rules down and say "this is NEETS, this is our rules, lets race"

I see nothing wrong with still having some drivers come out and re-evaluate the rules, or anyone can give suggestions on things to change, but the rules should keep the cars stock, and the rules should be set in stone. Because we all know, no matter what the rules are, there is always a gray area where you can take chances. So keep it simple. Keep it stock. And keep playing in the mud.

DerbyN8-128
08-21-2011, 09:51 PM
.I was at 2 tracks that killed classes by constantly allowing more and more stuff.
Rockin Rick


I mentioned this happening in the derby side of this kind of racing in my above post, obviously here is an example of it also happening in round track racing.

DerbyN8-128
08-21-2011, 09:53 PM
Pits open at 8 AM....I understand the guy caught in traffic arriving at 12:15 is going to be looking over his car....but why are there some cars that have 4-5 people jumping under the hood just before the race with different parts/tires going on the car? This has to stop....we'll figure out a way to make it happen from an administrative standpoint, however I recommend YOU see it stop before I have to...



Impound the cars after inspection. :lol::lol::lol::lol: