Masse robbed

[bud]

IF THAT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE A OBVIOUS MOVE TO HAVE A SOUTHERN CAR WIN THE WSMT RACE......To bad Masse is a good kid!

[bud]

Good field of cars. Was nice to see the southern teams do well. Just wish the officials would be a little more consistent. Masse was starting the same place all day and never even a warning then with 2 to go.......
Very disappointed for the kid and the fans were making there feelings known. The boos weren't for the guy that ended up winning I'm sure it was for the inept call.
Congrats to Mr B

[bud]

Now I hear though another blog masse was harassed during inspection to the point that the track owner was called in..... in believable. The southern guys can't bring a full field and we get that kind of treatment.... Tim Brown says he shouldn't be in their race well what a dumb a$$ thing to say. We wanna watch a car race.... lol. Like the WSMT race at bowman grey.

[modracer13]

thanks for the support bud much appreciated... nascar screwed me

[limodmaniac]

Masse showed everyone just how fast that 13 car is - Great run!

[Howie]

I think there are a lot of people that agree with you Steve!! And I agree with limodmaniac, you drove a heck of a race!

[Revscott]

Steve if you won they would have found a way to DQ you later. Guys go out and try to save an awful Southern show and this is what they get.

On one hand it really wasnt fair to the Southern teams who paid all the money to come up to compete against local guys and two the local guys who tried to come out and help got the shaft.

Seems like it was a no win situation across the board.


Keep your head up kid you just won your first tour race and I hope to see you win many more.

[CuriousGeorge]

Does anybody have video of the whole victory lane scene? (besides the one on NascarHomeTracks)

[bud]

At this point I think what NASCAR pulled yesterday tops Newman and Bono.
So can Jason the PR guy explain what happened? How can NASCAR look anyone in the eye after that. What official made that call?

[Goldy]

Nice win Steve; awesome performance - the fans stand behind you.

[MJProcko]

A few questions to be answered.....

Looking at the video of the restart was the cone on the wall the restart line? If it was, he was about 50 feet early.....

If Masse was starting the race from that point each time then was he warned by Nascar or why wasn't he flagged earlier when he would have had time to make the ground up?

What should be looked at is why it was allowed to get to that point and mare what should have been a great race. No race should be settled that way especially if there were remedies that could have been taken to prevent it.

It's too bad for the 13 team for the day to end that way.

[Goldy]

From the Norwich Bulletin -
“We had the fastest car on the track. We didn’t luck into (the win); we were running him down, just didn’t have the time,” Brunnhoelzl said.

George has one correct statement here - he's right, it wasn't luck - it was a speical gift, wrapped up real nice by race control.

[MOD JUNKIE]

What happened here ? I couldnt follow this race. Was he given a warning by nascar first before being dq'ed ?

[spotter27]

was I hearing things or didn't nascar tell the 13 to give up the spot for jumping?thats what I heard on my radio.If he had given up the spot all he would have to do was have the 09 lead a lap like by a nose at the start/finish line,then he could have just kept on racing the 09.13 had the best car by far all day for south race so would have been easy totake back the lead again.

[limodmaniac]

Not to defend Nascar, but they have done this before. I think for one, at Bristol , when they made Lia give the spot back to Teddy? Am I correct on that?

[bud]

Restarts were the same all day come on......I can not believe anyone would defend what happened.
Kinda like the 2007 world series. Teddy has the point lead and leaving to run a ROC show on sat. after quailifing and is told by a NASCAR Official we dont like you supporting other tours. Im sure you know what Ted said.....lol. The next day less than 20 laps in there is an accident like 5 cars infront of him and they park him for causing it ....... hmmmmm is Stevie Wonder running race control for these guys? Maybe LI Mod is worried they will single his car out next.

[PitGirl35]

Actually in 2007, The Mystic Missile team had the championship locked up at Stafford before the World Series, so I'm hoping your talking about 2008. I hope we never have to run with the south again because it made our race boring. Maybe they should learn to do real pit stops. We couldn't pit for tires and many times what happens on pit road makes for a great rest of the race.

[bud]

maybe it was 2006

[MJProcko]

Restarts were the same all day come on......I can not believe anyone would defend what happened.
Kinda like the 2007 world series. Teddy has the point lead and leaving to run a ROC show on sat. after quailifing and is told by a NASCAR Official we dont like you supporting other tours. Im sure you know what Ted said.....lol. The next day less than 20 laps in there is an accident like 5 cars infront of him and they park him for causing it ....... hmmmmm is Stevie Wonder running race control for these guys? Maybe LI Mod is worried they will single his car out next.

not sure which car you consider LI Maniacs but if you go by the cars that he's helped out with all he's done your talking over half the field....

[limodmaniac]

I found that funny too.. And to rephrase what I said before. I did not defend Nascar. just said they have done that kind of stuff before.. Just remembered they did it to Erick Rudolph at Spencer a few years ago too.

Saddest part ( besides for Masse) is that the fans got jipped out of a very fast 13 car that could have made the shootout even more exciting.

[bud]

57....lol.

[TMAC]

Not to defend Nascar, but they have done this before. I think for one, at Bristol , when they made Lia give the spot back to Teddy? Am I correct on that?

You are correct on that.

[Magicshoes12]

There was also a restart a few years back at Loudon when Szegedy and TC were on the front row and Szegedy went (he was the leader) and TC held back and they black flagged Szegedy....I think the moral of the story is they need to be consistant with the call, I remember last year in his title run Santos left early at Stafford a couple of time and he got a warning....there is just too much of a gray area in the restart calls. I feel bad for Steve as I've watched him in the MRS and Open shows, He's a great shoe and maybe hopefully we'll see him on the tour next year!!

Maybe Thompson could help out the situation by painting a line across the track as the restart line, this way you aren't looking at a cone that Nascar puts up or two pieces of orange tape they put up, It would be better for the drivers to have that line!!

Either way its a tough call and a heat breaker!

[MJProcko]

Can anyone confirm if the cone on the wall was the restart line or not?????

http://www.youtube.com/user/NASCARHomeTracks?blend=13&ob=5#p/u/2/5UUtKXJpCq8

And can anyone confirm if what Spotter27 said was true about Nascar telling the 13 to give up the spot over the radio????

if both those are true than I still feel bad for Masse but then there is alot of emotion replacing facts. To Masse's defense GBIII said the restarts were early all day so Nascar should have, and maybe they did, warn him ahead of time. Looking at the video, if the 13 was starting in the same spot each time, I am suprised with 2 laps to go the whole field was asleep as he jumped to a full car length lead before anyone else went. Before anyone starts screaming modifieds have always let the leader start blah blah, I know that. I considered myself a master in go-karts of a Plainville Stadium classic - the 'bring the field to green at a snails pace out of 4' to use bump from the car behind to propel me to a huge jump. Nascar has the start rule they have to avoid inconsistant starts like that or the starting the middle of the backstretch ploy. Point being there was a rule in place and maybe Nascar did a crappy job of enforcing it but we are still short info here.

[modracer13]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afNLQ9L9BRg

not bashing anyone in this video but they clearly start before the cone...

[spotter27]

one other thing to remember is the starter,starts the race with the green flag,at stafford there are 2 cones and they call it the box,once your in the box the leader can go when they are inside it as long as green is out.one question for mod13 is did his spotter say anything to him that nascar told him about starts being early or to give it up?

[SUfan]

Masse said he was not warned. I asked the NASCAR Race Director for an explanation/response and he refused, referring me to NASCAR P.R. Please also keep in mind that this was the South Tour, with a first-year official making the call as far as we know. Just last month a north tour driver said that the leader jumped restarts at Loudon and nothing was done. Maybe they need to work on this inconsistency?

[Howie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afNLQ9L9BRg

not bashing anyone in this video but they clearly start before the cone...

They (the rules) also state, if i remember right, that if you give the position back there will be no penalty. What position could he give back, he was the leader (before the restart also). BUT even though the cone is the spot where they restarted, the lap doesn't start counting until the start/finish line does it? LOOK CLOSELY AT THAT POINT ON THE VIDEO. The video seems to jump a little and the starters stand blocks your view for a few seconds, but..... Masse had "given back" all his lead except for a few feet at the finish line. As close a start at the start finish line as you had seen all day, JMO.

[Bob T. Racer]

They (the rules) also state, if i remember right, that if you give the position back there will be no penalty. What position could he give back, he was the leader (before the restart also). BUT even though the cone is the spot where they restarted, the lap doesn't start counting until the start/finish line does it? LOOK CLOSELY AT THAT POINT ON THE VIDEO. The video seems to jump a little and the starters stand blocks your view for a few seconds, but..... Masse had "given back" all his lead except for a few feet at the finish line. As close a start at the start finish line as you had seen all day, JMO.

You're right Howie. Plus i also think Nascar has a rule that the leader must be leading at the Start/Finish line. That was about as close as i've seen it at the line all year. Usually Nascar makes the 2nd place guy that jumped the start give up the lead or be black flagged. Nascar can't have the rule both ways. If they want them even at the start/finish line, then that's where the restart line should be. Nascar is worse than the government, when they see something they don't like they make another law, untill it gets to the point that the laws-rules contradict each other. I guess Nascar can have it both ways, that way they can have the winner they want.

[Rentawrench]

I got no dog in this hunt was NOT there, was busy having FUN with the kids Karting.

Steve you JUMPED in the Vid I seen, You need to play( listen to tower making the calls )by there rules, Now the time lag between the tower telling you "Give it back " is long time an they want a Quicker action.

The first time I seen/ heard the call was at Stafford when Leader Mike Stefanik was called for it, Now Mike an Julie are Great team. But neither knew what NASCAR wanted them to do till it was almost to late, Mike lost TWO spots that day an spent time talking with Chad after. It has been called many times since.

Mike has found some of NASCARS rules need Long time to explain AFTER the race ,But only giving a split second to OBEY, while racing.

How many know "Maintain speed or go to the back rule under caution" , Ask Mike or better yet find the Vid of him LEADING the Toyota Showdown in Calif. Mike was leading wreck happened an yellow comes out , he slows an was Spun out by the second place car. Go to the rear you did NOT maintain forward speed. Thats a 9 time Champ.

Use it as Learning experance,the spotter needs to know what an why the call is for, an the driver needs to Obey the spotter with out asking why. Sorry If this Long But I think it needed to be said.

[Goldy]

Food for thought..

In response to MJProco I offer Exhibit B (http://www.racerhub.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=217306&ppuser=3410)-

I sat on the fence between the near empty stands in 3 and 4 – and was “zoomed” in on the action coming off 4. Now what I’d like to point out is the following:

1. Yes, the cone and the stripe on the wall are in fact at the same place.
2. My zoom photo offers a tunnel view - as the amount of “straightaway” seems awfully short to the cone, almost non existent – while….
3. The video of the 13 and the restart – appears to show a much longer stretch of “straight” coming off the turn.

So its possible my photo provides more of a drivers view; showcasing not a lot of time and distance as you come off the turn and the video shows more of a “tower” view where there appears to be more "straight", rolling to the cone/line – 2 very different perceptions..

[spotter27]

Masse said he was not warned. I asked the NASCAR Race Director for an explanation/response and he refused, referring me to NASCAR P.R. Please also keep in mind that this was the South Tour, with a first-year official making the call as far as we know. Just last month a north tour driver said that the leader jumped restarts at Loudon and nothing was done. Maybe they need to work on this inconsistency?

maybe the spotter didn't hear it but find that hard to believe.also this was NOT a first-year official but was the same race director the does all the north races and he did all 3 that day.

[MJProcko]

Food for thought..

In response to MJProco I offer Exhibit B (http://www.racerhub.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=217306&ppuser=3410)-

I sat on the fence between the near empty stands in 3 and 4 – and was “zoomed” in on the action coming off 4. Now what I’d like to point out is the following:

1. Yes, the cone and the stripe on the wall are in fact at the same place.
2. My zoom photo offers a tunnel view - as the amount of “straightaway” seems awfully short to the cone, almost non existent – while….
3. The video of the 13 and the restart – appears to show a much longer stretch of “straight” coming off the turn.

So its possible my photo provides more of a drivers view; showcasing not a lot of time and distance as you come off the turn and the video shows more of a “tower” view where there appears to be more "straight", rolling to the cone/line – 2 very different perceptions..



Thanks Goldy, glad someone could answer the question..... and so thorougly too.

[JEFF]

I had my scanner and I did not hear any warning.( LW and Masse were on the same freq.) that was weird.

[MXCHAMP04]

Once again, no response from the pom pom waving guy. Sorry steve you got screwed. Stick to the VMRS, at least you will be treated fairly.

[bud]

unless you drive the 00.....

[NWMT PR]

I've been quite busy lately so I apologize for being late to the party, but I see the topic is still fresh.

A lot of things to address through three pages of comments, so I'll just randomly hit a few topics ...



If the restarts are close to being early, there will be warnings to the leaders. We’ve had multiple warnings to that effect this year. If it is a blatant jump of the restart, there is no warning, it just a penalty.
There were just three green flags prior to the one in question. The flag man controlled the initial start, Lia was the leader following the first caution and Masse restarted the field after the second caution. So it wasn’t like the “they were going early all day” applied to a mass of restarts, and that was a heat-of-the-moment comment that should be taken with a grain of salt.
I think reasonable minds can all agree that Masse jumped the final restart. Of the people I’ve talked to (fans, media, officials), it was obvious to the naked eye, and certainly confirmed by the video. So the problem here really is with the different points of view everyone has on the enforcement.
Bottom line, jumping the restart in a NASCAR Whelen Modified Tour race in 2011 is a pass-through penalty. Other series may have different procedures, and NASCAR may have had different procedures in previous years, but that’s the way it is in 2011. It is the responsibility of the teams to know the restart procedures, which are hammered home in the driver/crew chief meetings every week. Masse may or may not have meant to do it, and he may not have completey understood the rules, but that doesn't change that a violation occurred and that it should be enforced.
As some of the posters have mentioned in this thread, NASCAR has penalized multiple drivers for jumping restarts in the recent seasons that I’ve been on board. Stefanik, Santos, etc. If a seven-time champ and the season points leader have been penalized for jumping restarts, then allegations of favoritism ring hollow. If it was the other way around and Brunnhoelzl had jumped the restart, the same penalty would have applied.
In regard to the chaos in victory lane … the restart violation occurred on Lap 119 and Masse was taken off the board after completing Lap 123, so he was given four laps to comply and serve the pass-through penalty. Not only did he not serve the penalty, but he drove into victory lane two laps after he was given the black flag and five laps after his spotter was informed of the violation. That entire scene would have been avoided if he would have come to pit road as early as Lap 120 to serve the assessed penalty. Staying out on the track was not going to change the penalty and pulling into victory lane only exacerbated the situation.
Again, the bottom line here is, it was a violation. You can agree or disagree with the rule, that is your prerogative, but that doesn’t change the rule. The NWMT is different than the MRS, which is different than the NWAAS, which is different than fill-in-the blank series.


Overall, it was a fun weekend. The northerners have been going south for so long that it was nice to see the southerners come north, and I think many enjoyed it. The Showdown itself was a fun race.

[MJProcko]

Thank you, pretty much covered all my questions, where was the start line, was he warned before hand and was he contacted on the radio regards to the restart - went pretty much the way I thought. Anyone familiar with this board knows the banter between the 2 series found here and sadly the way the events unfolded it was inevitable the emotions would flow. Looking forward to NH.

[bud]

Still wondering how its a jumped start when they were side by side under the flagstand.? It is what it is..... hope with car counts down ALL SERIES know that treating the entire field fairly is going to mean alot! And making the trips to tracks that are a distance away good paying races.

[SUfan]

maybe the spotter didn't hear it but find that hard to believe.also this was NOT a first-year official but was the same race director the does all the north races and he did all 3 that day.

FYI- The north Race Director confirmed at Lime Rock that he was not in the tower for the south race at Thompson. He was taking care of getting things ready for the north race, and had nothing to do with the decision.

[Acadia]

I'm amazed that people can deny the penalty in the face of evidence like that.

It would have been horrible if the penalty was not called.

[bud]

Nascar/OJ....... BOTH GOT AWAY WITH MURDER