How will Nascar try to help?

[limodmaniac]

Looks like we could be losing some teams next year ( hope it's not true, but those are the rumors) - I was just wondering if Nascar is going to do anything to help the tour.

Do the owners/ drivers ever sit down with Nascar officials and race track owners and really discuss how to make things better?

Yesterdays race was great.. a full field.. good action.. But if many of those teams don't return next year, what will it be like without them. Why are teams not coming back and can anything be done to stop them from leaving, or get them to come back?

How will Nascar try to help? Less multi day races? Paying out to more teams on the point fund?

Not looking to bash anyone here, just looking for good discussion between Nascar and the teams to make things better

[Jaws]

NASCAR needs to sit down with all the team owners and come up with a plan to make racing more cost effective.

How about some shorter races 50 or 75 laps with no pitting 1 set of tires no fuel added unless the race runs long and there is a fuel stop, (Maybe add heats for a 50 lap race :)) How about making the NH 1 day, qualifying in AM race in PM. Some teams can't get crews for the 2 or 3 day races. Even 1 day events for the bigger Thompson or Stafford races. How about a 2 race weekend, Stafford Sat, Thompson Sunday both with 50, 75 or 100 lap races paying a good purse. How about those 2 tracks working together? What about a 2 day show where there is a 50 lap race on Friday and 100 lap race on Sat like the World of Outlaws.

Tires? Fill in the blanks on that one.

Licences that are cheaper but good for a limited number of races. With no pit stops no fire suits needed for the crews. Riverhead only gets a handful of cars because it costs too much to enter the race. Maybe even a crate motor like the ACT cars use, saves the teams 10's of thousands of dollars per year. Lastly the series needs one more big sponsor to put the money right in the purse, Whelen is a great sponsor and promotor of the series , they puts a lot of money into the series but I am not sure it goes toward the purses. More money in the purses would draw more cars.

Last............. TV time, Versus was great last year but it lasted 1 season, now we have internet radio, great to listen to but it doesn't do for the series what TV does.

Last more Modmaniacs, Jim has done more for the Riverhead modified race and induvidual race teams than anyone. Thank you Jim!

[RGeeProductions]

Just notes:
One day show, 50, 75 or 100 laps? How much do you think an admission would be? $50 for a spectator? Remember a few short weeks ago many complained about $50 for a 2 day show at Thompson? No one will pay that. Without that what will the purse be then?
No tire change or fuel, no need for firesuits? What happens if you wreck then? Sorry, safety always first.
Heats and race? Same tires to save cost? Sorry back to safety. Would be a wreck filled feature.
Crate motors? You already can go that way if you choose. Notice no one does? Or all run crate motors? Oh yeah, fail like the IROC did...
Sorry, I don't see easy solutions here at all.
Wait, there is just solution! Get a new government for the USA that will fix the economy and I bet the mod fields would come back!!!
All my personal opinions..... RGee

[Jaws]

Right or wrong but they are just my opinions as well.

What I do know for sure some changes need to be made or car counts will continue to shrink.

I don't think improving the economy so it helps the mod tour is on any candidates agenda so lets not count on that.

[Goldy]

Think low hanging fruit here folks. Scheduling..

Loose the 2 day CT shows - no reason we can't be a 1 day format; always schedule races for a Sat with a Sunday rain date option. (NHIS could be the exception)
Yes, this really means shaking the tree a bit with those traditional weekends - sorry, but we need to be a 1 day show tour. One of these tracks could show they care by making one of their weekend shows a one day (tour) event.. see how it goes, run your other races on Sunday.. we already know this CAN be done!! Stafford and Thompson already have 1 days shows - the purse and the front gate should be well within current price structures.

NHMS Thursday qualifying and Sat race - Needs to be a 1 day show - this tour and the NHMS fans deserve the Sat card.

Midweek Bristol show - must change to a Friday

If Canada remains on the schedule, it better pay a premium purse.

As much as I like going to Lime Rock, if we want to cut costs for these teams until things get better - take this off the schedule for a couple years - and add a 75 to 100 lapper at Waterford or something comparable.

Too me these are no brainers in terms of cutting some costs for teams - I'm aware there are ripple effects, but these could be done if someone wanted to make it happen bad enough..

[JWfor8x]

NASCAR needs to sit down with all the team owners and come up with a plan to make racing more cost effective.

How about some shorter races 50 or 75 laps with no pitting 1 set of tires no fuel added unless the race runs long and there is a fuel stop, (Maybe add heats for a 50 lap race :)) How about making the NH 1 day, qualifying in AM race in PM. Some teams can't get crews for the 2 or 3 day races. Even 1 day events for the bigger Thompson or Stafford races. How about a 2 race weekend, Stafford Sat, Thompson Sunday both with 50, 75 or 100 lap races paying a good purse. How about those 2 tracks working together? What about a 2 day show where there is a 50 lap race on Friday and 100 lap race on Sat like the World of Outlaws.

Tires? Fill in the blanks on that one.

Licences that are cheaper but good for a limited number of races. With no pit stops no fire suits needed for the crews. Riverhead only gets a handful of cars because it costs too much to enter the race. Maybe even a crate motor like the ACT cars use, saves the teams 10's of thousands of dollars per year. Lastly the series needs one more big sponsor to put the money right in the purse, Whelen is a great sponsor and promotor of the series , they puts a lot of money into the series but I am not sure it goes toward the purses. More money in the purses would draw more cars.

Last............. TV time, Versus was great last year but it lasted 1 season, now we have internet radio, great to listen to but it doesn't do for the series what TV does.

Last more Modmaniacs, Jim has done more for the Riverhead modified race and induvidual race teams than anyone. Thank you Jim!

I agree with most of your points, espescially the TV time. I understand what happenned this year, but I won't understand if it is not fixed by next year. If I were a business owner in this economy, I wouldn't want to spend advertising money sponsoring a car unless their was a wide enough audience to see it. To that end, I would not only like to see more TV coverage, but I would like it if NASCAR at least tried to get the TV partner to mention some of the various sponsors during the telecast. That probably won't happen, but if it did, I think it would go a long way to help the teams.

[Goldy]

I agree with most of your points, espescially the TV time. I understand what happenned this year, but I won't understand if it is not fixed by next year. If I were a business owner in this economy, I wouldn't want to spend advertising money sponsoring a car unless their was a wide enough audience to see it. To that end, I would not only like to see more TV coverage, but I would like it if NASCAR at least tried to get the TV partner to mention some of the various sponsors during the telecast. That probably won't happen, but if it did, I think it would go a long way to help the teams.

JWfor8x - I hear you and agree.. I might be off in my assesment, but to me this equates to "potential dollars". If I'm ABC Company and I want to give "Don Owner" 15k for the season because he assures me that the car will be seen on TV for half of the racing schedule - that's a great point, I get that - but those type of opportunities don't apply to all.. going after things that impact every team owners\team members bottom line, like towing fuel (for a repeat trip due to a Sunday rain out for example), lodging for multiple days, car modifications to compete for 1 race, hauling to Canada, finishing 5th and loosing money - that can't happen..

[Acadia]

Teams come and go, swap crew, drivers, etc.

It has been a very transient series.

We'll just have to wait and see.

If the geniuses running the Tour can't figure it out, we certainly can't be expected to help. ;)


However, with that said, some rules changes regarding the max engine displacement, weight no longer associated with engine displacement, carb rules explicitly defined, and then rules enforced should be a huge improvement.


It is very difficult to compete against those that are not complaint with the rules.

[Teds Race Tours]

If you run at Bristol in August, it would always be on a Wednesday. No room in the infield on the weekend.

[AraceAday]

If you run at Bristol in August, it would always be on a Wednesday. No room in the infield on the weekend.

They could run them the weekend before as a sort of "Kick off" to the upcoming race week.

[Acadia]

I know I would have a much better chance, and many other people, at attending if it were on a Saturday.

As crazy as these long distance races are, Bristol is a great track for these cars.



They could run them the weekend before as a sort of "Kick off" to the upcoming race week.

[JWfor8x]

JWfor8x - I hear you and agree.. I might be off in my assesment, but to me this equates to "potential dollars". If I'm ABC Company and I want to give "Don Owner" 15k for the season because he assures me that the car will be seen on TV for half of the racing schedule - that's a great point, I get that - but those type of opportunities don't apply to all.. going after things that impact every team owners\team members bottom line, like towing fuel (for a repeat trip due to a Sunday rain out for example), lodging for multiple days, car modifications to compete for 1 race, hauling to Canada, finishing 5th and loosing money - that can't happen..

Goldy, in a perfect world, I think it would be great for the tour not only to continue going to Canada, but to go run a few combined races with the southern tour and maybe even return to upstate NY. Unfortunatly, now is not the time to do those things, in my opinion. The problem is, if the tour is held at 16 or so races, I can't see any revenue growth. I've seen some great ideas here, but as I see it until the economy gets better, I think that it will be very difficult times for the tour.

[Racerjoe]

Since its pretty evident that the purses are not going up any time soon.... Cost containment would have to be seriously considered, Limit the two day shows to just a few. Tires, limit the amount of tires purchased per race. Maybe only change one tire during race... who knows. Keep the distance short enough so no fuel needs be added, shouldn't need all crew members in fireproof suits then. Why not allow different engine combinations equalizer could be weight or carburation similar to the MRS, possibly pulling more cars from other series. Just a few thoughts

[CTtoPA]

Having NASCAR run this series is like the person in an abusive relationship who keeps going back. Why don't the teams forget NASCAR and help build up the MRS?? As far as ticket prices: Williams Grove National Open had 53 entries on Friday for $8,000 to win and $28 general admission. They're running the postponed $50,000 to win this coming Friday. Admission is $35. Charging $50 is absurd. I don't care how many classes of cars. The back gate should take in enough $ so that the spectators don't get screwed in the wallet.

[JWfor8x]

Having NASCAR run this series is like the person in an abusive relationship who keeps going back. Why don't the teams forget NASCAR and help build up the MRS?? As far as ticket prices: Williams Grove National Open had 53 entries on Friday for $8,000 to win and $28 general admission. They're running the postponed $50,000 to win this coming Friday. Admission is $35. Charging $50 is absurd. I don't care how many classes of cars. The back gate should take in enough $ so that the spectators don't get screwed in the wallet.

Would it help the teams if they abandoned NASCAR for the MRS? Would that mean that the MRS races would pay out what Williams Grove does? As far as the admissions goes, are the promoter's/track owners costs the same at Williams Grove and the tour tracks that charge $50.00? How about the cost of living for the fans in the different areas? Are they the same? I don't know. I agree with those who say that the tour shows should be one day and that the races short enough not to reguire fuel stops.

[bud]

Divers themselves could reduce costs by not having 15 cautions per race. Another area not mentioned is why does a mod chassis cost so much? Maybe way less compression and way bigger carb....
To add excitement to the shorter races add the VMRS type qualifying format....last weeks winner starts shotgun. One thing everyone has forgot.... this ain't cup. It's all about a show.

[MJProcko]

Before you do anything you need to define the goals needed to be accomplished: Make the product better; more exciting racing; Decrease the cost of competition, Increase the profitability for all involved and make it more accessible for the consumer…… simple.

First:
Eliminate the touring license fee for any crew member already holding a Nascar Weekly license. Charging a guy 250 bucks to change tires on a WMT car at Riverhead for one night when he is keeping the place in business by busting his butt there weekly is not fair. These guys don’t work for Hendrick – they work for a living and if you haven’t read a paper lately, a lot of them aren’t even doing that now. Racing is their passion, not how they feed their children.

Second:
Semi-merge the tours, run a schedule of 10 North and 10 South races along with 8 combo events to determine a North & South champion. Use the 8 combo races run at Bristol, NH, Stafford, Thompson, Richmond, Caraway, Martinsville and South Boston to also determine a national champion. (Dover and Rockingham are possibilities also/Bowman Gray is not – good race just not enough room for 40 cars)

Third:
Increase the purses and point finds by:

a. Hats off to Whelen but siphoning their resources off by dividing them between the tours and the All American series take away from the tour. Let K&N do that. If that money was directed into the point fund I believe everyone would get a better return.

In fact, eliminate the K&N Series all together. It is a development series and what Nascar has done is create a series with a specific car that keeps them off the tracks weekly and kills the Whelen All American Series by reducing car counts to the point of tracks closing down. You can’t have a Little League without a field to play on. It is also hurting the brand of the 14yos by not giving the fans a chance to watch these kids grow. Joey Lagano is a prime example. Unless you were hanging out at the Silver City Midget Club, you have no tie in this kid, no connection other than they list his home address as CT.

I’ll do Nascar another favor here. Use the motor package from the K&N for the truck series and then you have a series that will better prepare the 14yos for the rigors of the big 2. This will keep the smaller truck teams from folding up allow the needed influx of the bigger truck teams to the Nationwide series and keep that series afloat too.

b. Steve Park is 52nd in Cup points with one start and a 41st place finish – pay out $78,000…. What does this have to do with the WMT? Simple I love Steve Park but it brings up the farce that is the park and start. Ask yourself, which is better bang for the buck for Sylvania; 78k on the 41st car of the Sylvania 300 or 50k in additional sponsorship at the Car Quest/Sylvania Fall final at Stafford. (easy Arutes and Hoenings…. Don’t get to excited, its 50k for the purse, well get to you later.) Which would do more good; hoping someone notices on the TV position ticker that Travis Kvapil parked his car after 10 laps or the 10,000 folks at the fall final seeing their name all over? So, save the embarrassment of someday having a short field on Sunday by cutting the field to 40 and use the purse savings to enhance them an additional sponsorship package by giving them a direct connection also to the “Heart of Nascar”.

c. Decrease the burdens on the tracks putting on the races. We’ve helped the purse by adding sponsors now we need to lower the sanction fees. I doubt Greenville Pickens is paying the same price to bring the K&N in that Stafford is for the WMT. Did GP charge 40 bucks to get in? So they can be lowered and the tracks can pass that saving down to the fans in reduced ticket prices. A Thompson ticket should not cost the same as a Darlington ticket. ( Arutes, Hoenings, your making money on the tour races, If we decrease your burden, give back) You can't sanction a race on a track that is out of business.

Third:
Look into a way to make more mods legal by an added weight or carb rule or something. Tech guys need to help here. SLM’s do it all the time and it can work. If it’s cheap for other tours to run their car and be competitive they will make a few races. There has to be a few ways to reduce the motor cost without prohibitively choking off performance.

Fourth:
a TV package for the 8 combo races would be a good sell. Again it’s all about putting the right sponsorship package to get it done if Nascar is willing can be done easily. They don’t even have to be live and can be edited for an hour slot. It sure would help all involved.

Last:
Forget “flash races” “no stop races” or “make it like the MRS Series races” and for God’s sake ignore the minority pushing them. If this season proved one thing, short races, start to finish winners and no stop races were as exciting as watching paint dry. The WMT is supposed to be special not just another weekly race.
If someone wants 50 lap races like a weekly Saturday night race then they should be at Wall or Riverhead or Stafford weekly…. That’s great, enjoy, I do. If they want a series just like the MRS series then by all means, go to the MRS series races. There is nothing wrong with that, I have. If someone wants to tow all over NE and race 100 laps for roughly the purse of an 35 lap SK race, cool. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. This is America. But be real, when was the last time you saw a heat race that rivaled the feature? Not saying TT's are exciting by any means but are you really deciding on attending due to the qualifying procedure??? This not the Snow Ball Derby or Knoxville Nationals where there are 80+ cares trying to get in.

These are just my opinions and are in no way affiliated with any organization (but they should)…

PS
I Know Nascar has to read this and be intrigued, and with the Architectural and Civil Engineering fields nearly dead in America I will offer my services as the new director of the WMT & WSMT and in 2 years you’ll be thanking me. :)

[worm]

in 2012 99% of the carbs have to have new boosters about 500 a carb. most teams have 2 or 3

[CTtoPA]

MJProcko-If you continue to be this logical and make sense of it all NASCAR is going to put a bounty on your head!

Does anybody have an idea how much NASCAR costs a promoter to put on a tour race? How about MRS? What is the payout at the end of the year for WMT? MRS? Is Whelen responsible for supporting the point fund?

[Acadia]

Not sure what you mean by this...


in 2012 99% of the carbs have to have new boosters about 500 a carb. most teams have 2 or 3

[SteveS]

Not sure what you mean by this...
The under side of the booster nozzle was never subject to conforming to any dimensions(grey area), they have now added a new tool to the arsenal which is a go-no go gauge that the booster will have to conform to. It believe because it was never subject to policing all the carb builders "massaged" that area to increase performance. Most of the boosters will need to be replaced with bone stock parts and re-epoxied into the main body.

[Acadia]

Was there a press release on this that anybody can point me to?


The under side of the booster nozzle was never subject to conforming to any dimensions(grey area), they have now added a new tool to the arsenal which is a go-no go gauge that the booster will have to conform to. It believe because it was never subject to policing all the carb builders "massaged" that area to increase performance. Most of the boosters will need to be replaced with bone stock parts and re-epoxied into the main body.

[worm]

not tell after 2011 is done. it would be nice if nascar made a new tool for the old boosters since most people have them that way

[bud]

MJP Keep that elitest attitude going...lol WAKE UP CALL.....THIS AINT CUP!!!!! Heat races shake up the field. Racing is supposed to be a show.
What part of that have all of you forgot? Hang on to the time trials are god attitude and we are so freakin special attitude right till the end. I can see CJ, REGGIE, RICHIE, LEO, ALL THE GREATS INCLUDING TED, WOULD RATHER HAVE TIME TRIALS THAN ACTUALLY RACE FOR A WIN. YUP THE OLD SPRING SIZZLERS SUCKED USING THAT FORMAT. GIVE ME A BREAK.....YUP IGNORE THOSE PEOPLE WANTING A REAL RACE HECK THEY ONLY BUY THE TICKETS.......LOL MODIFIED MADNESS WAS SO GOOD USING TIME TRIALS.....OPPS THEY DIDN'T USE THEM......

[MJProcko]

I guess Bud falls into the "ingnore the minority" part of my post....lol. Good thing the stands were packed with folks Sunday who don't let the qualifying procedure determine the races they attend. I know Bud thinks we are still in the glory days modified racing, hell I'd give anything to sit in the stands of Plainville stadium again on a Wed. nite but it ain't happening. There have been alot of changes you might now have heard about. The Sizzler no longer has 80-90 cars trying to qualify for it..... There is no longer a Non-qualifiers race.... In fact, they pretty much start the entire field that shows up these days so how they qualifiy to get in really is not all that important. They no longer race pintos, vegas or gremlins anymore either.....:)

[bud]

No not gremlins.....no just chevys that aren't even made anymore...... call them what you want but its pretty much the body that
Geoff Bodine showed up with 20 or is it 30yrs ago........ HMMMM Great crowd on sunday......No lame time trials on sunday either. Be to proud
to admit we have headed down a wrong road....heck the cliff is only 10-12 teams away!!!! Do time trials really make the division all that
special or professional? Remember the double header weekend Louden/Canaan? Hmmm Canaan was mobbed. Did the fans come to see the WMT or did they come to see THE DRIVERS? Well guess what ....you loose drivers......you loose fans. Minority???? Maybe the Horn should have a pole....
Heats or Time Trials.............( I do admit heats at louden or bristol probably are not the way to go but at the rest of the tracks......) Heck I'd rather them draw for all the starting spots than Time Trial. Now that would be a show! Pretty sure TC wouldn't whine about that either....lol
And don't kid yourselves NASCAR isnt here to help out a hurting division.....they are here to make money. When that opportunity gets to the point it is no longer cost effective.....see ya.
Heck NASCAR can't worry about the mods they have a hard time filling the stands for the other Time Trial follow the leader divisions....lol. That truck race at louden was just a cliff hanger......Kyle leading all but 10 laps.....Lets follow that lead. Remember one thing....without the Ted factor how many exciting races did you really have this yr? He isn't gonna be around forever....lol.

[JWfor8x]

I guess Bud falls into the "ingnore the minority" part of my post....lol. Good thing the stands were packed with folks Sunday who don't let the qualifying procedure determine the races they attend. I know Bud thinks we are still in the glory days modified racing, hell I'd give anything to sit in the stands of Plainville stadium again on a Wed. nite but it ain't happening. There have been alot of changes you might now have heard about. The Sizzler no longer has 80-90 cars trying to qualify for it..... There is no longer a Non-qualifiers race.... In fact, they pretty much start the entire field that shows up these days so how they qualifiy to get in really is not all that important. They no longer race pintos, vegas or gremlins anymore either.....:)

I'm just a fan. I am not a racer and the closest to being a crew member that I have ever been was one day in Oklahoma, helping my brother out when he was racing his sports car. I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I do know that I don't like time trials. They bore me to tears. NASCAR wants the time trials though so I'm pretty sure they will stay. They also like the silly "lucky dog" rule so I'm pretty sure that will be around for a while too. I believe that MJProcko is right about one thing. They do pretty much start the entire field these days. What I would like to see is this. If there are not enough entries to have either time trials or heat races to eliminate competitors, have the teams pick pills for position. Wouldn't that save the teams some money and maybe make for some better racing too? If they do have more entries than open positions though. I might not like time trials, but could tolerate them along with a last chance race.

[bud]

BTW the glory days were before the WMT...... Think about that.......if you dare! Where did the cars all go? When did they all vanish? Tour licenses,
dual ignitions, longer races needing pit stops...... dumb time trials (lol).... NASCAR style calls (MASSE) and on and on,

[MJProcko]

Bud, I love ya so I hate to do this to you but you need a history lesson. The Gremlin was a hell of a modified, maybe you should go to the Plainville Stadium reunion tomorrow and tell Jap that his 00 gremlin wasn't a classic. Ever been to a race at Danbury... half the field were gremlins including the king of Danbury Don Lajoie..... Down south there was a guy named Paul Radford that kicked butt in a gremlin..... and your from up in cold parts of NE, ever see a funky looking gremlin #135 driven by Pete Fiandaca?????

As for the great modified races of the past not being long or having pit stops. All the great ones did with maybe the exception of the sizzler.
The Race of Champions @ Langhorne
The Race of Champions @ Trenton
The Race of Champions @ Pocono
Oswego Bud 200
Thompson 300
Thompson 500
Riverside 500
Wall Stadium Garden State Classic 300

seeing a pattern here? could you imagine driving all the way to Martinsville for the Cardinal classic with all that talent and cutting the race from 250 to 80 laps???? what a waste.

Now that horse has been beaten to death I can't believe all you got out of the original post was time trials and heat races.....

[MJProcko]

JWfor8x,

Like I posted earlier, the qualifying procedure is not high on my list as to weather or not I am going to see a race. I think having a race where the pole sitter doesn't just drive around for 50 or 100 laps for the win without a pass is all that exciting or the stuff of legends for the most part. If that happens I don't think if he timed the fastest, drew the #1 pill or moved up from 10th to 8th in a heat race and got the pole is going to make that race any better.

[wmass01013]

JWfor8x,

Like I posted earlier, the qualifying procedure is not high on my list as to weather or not I am going to see a race. I think having a race where the pole sitter doesn't just drive around for 50 or 100 laps for the win without a pass is all that exciting or the stuff of legends for the most part. If that happens I don't think if he timed the fastest, drew the #1 pill or moved up from 10th to 8th in a heat race and got the pole is going to make that race any better.

All valid points bt the fact is NASCAR has made the WMT a copcat version of Cup, i guess in their minds they figure that fans will think they are seeing a local version of cup racing and that may have worked 10-15 yrs ago during the NASCAR BOOM bu all one has to do is look at the seats at CUP RACES to see its not working, YESSSSSSSSS the economy is hurting everone, but the PRODUCT ISNT HELPING!!!!!

THE WMT NEEEEEEEDS to have its own identity now whether thats thru qualifying or distance of races or anything a promoter can think of, but to just trot out TIME TRIALS. LUCKY DOG, 150 LAP RACES START FASTEST GUY ON POLE, follow the leader til the last 50 laps ISNT WORKING, the fees and all the CUP STYEL RULES AND REGS ARE KILLING THE DIVISION

[Acadia]

It's just not right without that big race. It was "that" big event that really showed who can run a real race.


Right now all the race formats are the same and it needs a couple bigger events. Sure, keep most of the races at the current 125-150 lap format as a regular event, but throw in a couple 200 lappers, and bring back the Thompson 300.

[JWfor8x]

JWfor8x,

Like I posted earlier, the qualifying procedure is not high on my list as to weather or not I am going to see a race. I think having a race where the pole sitter doesn't just drive around for 50 or 100 laps for the win without a pass is all that exciting or the stuff of legends for the most part. If that happens I don't think if he timed the fastest, drew the #1 pill or moved up from 10th to 8th in a heat race and got the pole is going to make that race any better.

A race where the pole sitter drives around for 50 or 100 laps exciting? No. that's not exciting at all. That's what happens too often now when the races are started by time trials. I understand why it's done, but I don't like it. At least if they drew pills, it would mix the field up, be fair to evrybody and maybe lead to some better racing because some of the faster cars would have to work their way through the field. I would think there would be a little less expense for the teams as well. JMO

[BigMac]

Without a doubt, Bristol should be 200 laps. They click the laps off so fast down there. I'd even say 250 if the teams could do it with only 1 stop. The pulling pills idea will never work. Teams spend to much money to have starting positions determined by luck. Plus, you playing with fire if you get a bunch of chuckleheads starting up front. Nascar does need to look at the redraw again. Everyone applauded the move when they took it away last year(myself included) but the results weren't good. A lot of boring ass races this year. They need some sort of handicap. Maybe redraw the top 4 only.

[Acadia]

Heat races are inappropriate. These are the big boys of Modified racing. Cars will get wrecked in heat races, not an option. Besides, how is the starting line up for the heat races decided? Time trials? Just kidding. This is racing and it just makes too much sense that the cars start in the order from fastest to slowest, and time trials do that.

Time trials are good. The cars earn a starting spot as far to the front as they can. It makes them try hard to get in front away from the wrecking.

Even when there was a redraw, the cars sorted themselves out in a couple laps. The redraw was useless and bush league.

Starting the faster qualifying cars further to the back, for whatever reason, is no good. Why do that? It will only last a couple laps until they get themselves sorted out or wrecked. It makes no sense to try to get things mixed up so early when they are more than capable of wrecking on their own without the extra help.

[wmass01013]

Heat races are inappropriate. These are the big boys of Modified racing. Cars will get wrecked in heat races, not an option. Besides, how is the starting line up for the heat races decided? Time trials? Just kidding. This is racing and it just makes too much sense that the cars start in the order from fastest to slowest, and time trials do that.

Time trials are good. The cars earn a starting spot as far to the front as they can. It makes them try hard to get in front away from the wrecking.

Even when there was a redraw, the cars sorted themselves out in a couple laps. The redraw was useless and bush league.

Starting the faster qualifying cars further to the back, for whatever reason, is no good. Why do that? It will only last a couple laps until they get themselves sorted out or wrecked. It makes no sense to try to get things mixed up so early when they are more than capable of wrecking on their own without the extra help.

SOOOOOOOOO time trialing fastest, starting 1st. leading all the laps and winning is exciting to you???????

if they are the big boys they shouldnt wreck in a heat!!!!!!!!!

[JWfor8x]

Without a doubt, Bristol should be 200 laps. They click the laps off so fast down there. I'd even say 250 if the teams could do it with only 1 stop. The pulling pills idea will never work. Teams spend to much money to have starting positions determined by luck. Plus, you playing with fire if you get a bunch of chuckleheads starting up front. Nascar does need to look at the redraw again. Everyone applauded the move when they took it away last year(myself included) but the results weren't good. A lot of boring ass races this year. They need some sort of handicap. Maybe redraw the top 4 only.

They will never go to a handicap system. I wouldn't mind if they returned to a redraw of some kind. As far as pulling pills never working, they worked just fine at Pocono for the Race of Champions heat races. Yes, they were 20 lap races and there were 3 cars in each heat with garaunteed starting spots in the feature on Sunday, but it seemed to work really well for what was it, 5 or 6 heat races? If it was done, wouldn't they spend a little less money trying to qualify and for that matter, wouldn't they be better able to use their practice time for race setup rather than for time trial setup? It doesn't matter anyway, because it is not going to happen. Bristol 200 laps? From a fans point of view, how could I not like that?

[bud]

So its not about a show its what NASCAR wants.... ok that's been working. Funny the wmt drivers are probably pretty impressed you guys against heats don't think they can go 12 laps without major carnage....lol. a mid pack team could win a 12 lap heat. Mmmmm might encourage more cars to run.... oh no hear comes more devastation.... pay to win the heats......Omg take cover! I find it amazing that we are trying to keep from loosing cars but the teams we are trying to save are referred to as chuckle heads. NICE!

[bud]

Pick on the VMRS BUT THEY ARE NOT AFRAID OF COMPETITION. They run heats... they have awesome racing ..... a ton of winners...(yeah I spelled it right.... not whiners lol) trust me they aren't beneath you guys.....I'm pretty sure Masse proved that!

[Acadia]

That's right, what's a show? I see people talk it's all about the show, but the show is undefined, nebulous and ambiguous.

So go ahead, and define what a show is. You'll be better off defining what a good race is, but go ahead and define what a show is.

[BOWATCHER]

get rid of CHAD

[bud]

Lol let's see. Ever been to thunderroad. There is a show. Still have to run a consi to get into the big ushow. Let's see heats give the lil guy a chance to shine. Guys that don't stand a chance in the feature get a chance to run up front a chance to show off for their sponsors. If there are 3 heats it gives a chance to 3 more people to shine. Get trophies get money. I used to sponsor one of the best races in new england. It was the top 10 race. We took the top ten points cars reversed the order 10 th was on the pole. 1000 to win. No cars got destroyed no one got hurt cause they knew about the big picture later on! The drivers and the fans loved it. A SHOW....THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. What's so hard with trying to help the chuckleheads????? Just help the front runners and soon that's all you will have.TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF.

[bud]

How awesome would it be to see wade win a heat at monadnock. You don't think if he started on the pole for a 12 lap heat he wouldn't drive the wheels off that car.... imagine the fans reation. It's a win win situation!

[Gil]

bud,

Was that $1,000 show a the New London-Waterford Speedbowl in the late 50s and/or the early 60s?

[MJProcko]

Lol let's see. Ever been to thunderroad. There is a show. Still have to run a consi to get into the big ushow. Let's see heats give the lil guy a chance to shine. Guys that don't stand a chance in the feature get a chance to run up front a chance to show off for their sponsors. If there are 3 heats it gives a chance to 3 more people to shine. Get trophies get money. I used to sponsor one of the best races in new england. It was the top 10 race. We took the top ten points cars reversed the order 10 th was on the pole. 1000 to win. No cars got destroyed no one got hurt cause they knew about the big picture later on! The drivers and the fans loved it. A SHOW....THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. What's so hard with trying to help the chuckleheads????? Just help the front runners and soon that's all you will have.TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF.

correct me of I am wrong but isn't only allowing the top 10 in points to race actually a race with only the front runners.....

[BigMac]

Heats are all fine and good when you have 45 cars trying to qualify for 30 spots. When you only have 27 cars and everyone is already qualified which was the case most of this year, I don't see the draw. You don't need heats when you don't have a full field. I watched the MRS do it this year with 18 car fields. It didn't do anything for me. Again, if you have a ton of cars it would be exciting but we're not there right now. Give me a 75 lap green flag only race with a normal purse and I think a lot of people would be happy. Maybe throw in a mandatory 1 tire change to keep the strategy part in play.

[bud]

Hmmm why does the VMRS have so many winners. Heats shake up the field.... you think Teds gonna settle for second because he has to start shotgun next week ...lol yeah right. Why run time trials if everyone qualifies....just start them by points..... so BTW where do the chuckle heads begin.....10th .....13th?

[JMB]

Heat races are inappropriate. These are the big boys of Modified racing. Cars will get wrecked in heat races, not an option. Besides, how is the starting line up for the heat races decided? Time trials? Just kidding. This is racing and it just makes too much sense that the cars start in the order from fastest to slowest, and time trials do that.

Time trials are good. The cars earn a starting spot as far to the front as they can. It makes them try hard to get in front away from the wrecking.

Even when there was a redraw, the cars sorted themselves out in a couple laps. The redraw was useless and bush league.

Starting the faster qualifying cars further to the back, for whatever reason, is no good. Why do that? It will only last a couple laps until they get themselves sorted out or wrecked. It makes no sense to try to get things mixed up so early when they are more than capable of wrecking on their own without the extra help.

The World of Outlaws Sprints\Late Models and Lucal Oil Late Models are way bigger than the NASCAR Modifieds for people who actually live the real word of racing and they have heats as part of the show. And they often run 2 days in a row while the Mods might have 3 weeks in between races so the wrecking in the heats argument does not make sense.

[Acadia]

You do not want the fastest to start at the front to prevent the freight train, you want to shake up the field, then you want to start by points which is pretty much the same thing as starting by time trials. The same cars are at the top of the points as end up at the top of time trials.



Hmmm why does the VMRS have so many winners. Heats shake up the field.... you think Teds gonna settle for second because he has to start shotgun next week ...lol yeah right. Why run time trials if everyone qualifies....just start them by points..... so BTW where do the chuckle heads begin.....10th .....13th?

[Acadia]

Most importantly, NASCAR has to go after rules compliance and get after those that are not complaint. That will establish a level playing field. This needs to be done first and foremost, and rules need to be vigilantly enforced. Otherwise, race formats, bonuses, etc. are just meaningless.

Look, the MRS has drawn 20-24 cars per event this year. Heats are pointless. They are all going into the main event. Why watch cars go out in multiple mini runs to set a starting order? Besides, how is the starting order for the heats decided? Sort of a chicken-and-egg deal there. ;)

When I go to a race, which to me is all about speed, I want to see the cars that have the highest potential for speed. That objective is achieved with time trials. I don't want some schlep getting lucky in a heat because top cars were taken out.

The 50 lap race at the North-South Shoot Out was pretty good. The race was all out from the start to the end, like "go time" at a regular event. That tells me that races can be short such as this 50 lapper, or if longer, long enough to require genuine tire changes. And by require I mean the tires will really get worn out, not just changed to get fresh. This intermediate length race (125-150) and no tires deal is what causes the long run in the middle where tires are saved for the end. There's racing at the start to get away from the wreckers, and then at the end.

I've often thought there needs to be incentives throughout the race, to prevent that freight train in the middle. Like big bonus points or money for leading at certain points in the race. This would help these 150 lap races. So lets say for these intermediate length races, let's put bonus points and/or money at the 50 and 100 lap points. Or just split the points into thirds, earned at the 50, 100 and 150 lap points.

And the lucky dog rule seems to be good. It creates a race within the race. You can hear it on the radio with cars competing to get that lucky dog spot, or at least make sure they don't lose it.

So here's how the NWMT schedule should be structured:

1. A couple short lap (50-75 laps), flat out racing events.

2. Several intermediate events (~150 laps) with inner-race point and money incentive bonuses.

3. A couple long distance events that genuinely require tire changes. These would be 200-300 lap events.

Keep the bonuses for leading a lap and leading the most laps.


You're welcome.

[bud]

Lol acadia sorry I lost u there....I'm a bit of a wise guy I was joking about starting by points... drawing for a starting position in a heat then racing from there for the feature starting position is exciting for both the drivers and fans. If a marginal team wins a heat its good for everyone. Gives those owners bragging rights. Right now what do they get....they get pounded into the ground every week! We are talking about attracting more cars right? If you wanna make it all about the front runners someday that's all you will have......no chuckle heads paying 100,000+ a yr to participate and have no hope of any return at all. BTW....I mean no disrespect to anyone but this is a serious topic.

[Acadia]

Bud,

The best way to keep marginal cars and below from getting pounded into the ground every week is to clean up the rules and enforce them.

The cheating is out of control, and if you don't like the bluntness of the word cheating, then call it skirting the rules. But there are rules to level the playing field, and it is obvious that some are out side the bounds, and they have been caught. Not enough are getting caught, or often enough. When that happens, the cars won't be strung out, they will be bunched up and racing for position throughout the race. The cheating that was exposed at the IceBreaker and Loudon turned out to be pretty good equalizers.

Given the rules, if these cars were running rules compliant engines, they would be darn near clones, and hardly anyone will be getting pounded into the ground every week, and it will be very likely that cars will run away from the pack, and it will be very unlikely that cars will get strung out freight train style.

[Racerjoe]

VMRS heats are done by the following:
Starting positions are done by pulling a number "luck"
Usually 3 heats with 6 qualifying per heat. Those 6 per heat will be handicapped by "plus, minus, system" how many car passed or passed by.
The rest of cars will either run a consi if needed, starting position determined by finishing order of heat or in no consi they will be lined up still by there finishing order in heats.
The past race winner can start no better than 18th.
Usually 24 cars start. But there have been exceptions. Seekonk started all 29 this weekend. Which I personally commend the track and Series for doing.

[MJProcko]

...... We are talking about attracting more cars right? ......

Exactly..... and exactly what was covered in points one & three of my original post before everyone got off on the silly qualifying procedures.

Lets take Monadnock for example. They are a Nascar sanctioned track so all of their regulars should have a valid Nascar license, why charge them an additional $1000+ in license fees for one race? A weight rule will help even out the cars and now all they have to worry about is buying tires for a 200 lap race (yes... 200 laps - 150 if we don't count caution laps at tracks with no infield pitting.). Now your looking at close to 40 cars and you have the top 12 in on time, spots 13 - 24 decided by 2 20 lap qualifying races (yes, I didn't say "heat" just to get you flustered :)) and the last 2 or 4 spots provisionals. I want to see the teams that don't qualify get a chance to race their way in and not just blow a grand+ plus on a set of tires to TT, everyone making the field negates this need. Then you redraw the top 12 and viola... a great race. Also, hoosier takes back the unused set of tires from the teams that did not qualify for the feature. Same for Riverhead.

This could also help access to the WNY/NJ/PA teams, some could very easily make the southern tour shows that way.

Again, Nascar needs to be looking to increase access to the tour, not copying a tour that up until this weekend hasn't had a full field since Ricky's Race in July. Heck even Thompson didn't go out of their way to reschedule them after the rainout. This is interesting. the last two big VMRS fields were a race with a huge purse and a race that was a two day event...... just saying.

[bud]

Ok big A. How does any of that draw more shleps......qualifying is only one way to draw more teams. Cost reduction is the other way. BTW the MRS HAD AS MANY CARS YESTERDAY AT THE KONK AS THE WMT HAD AT LOUDEN..... $hit a couple of them were at louden..... Omg open your eyes. You wanna see speed and 2 car fields go to the drags.....

[bud]

I give up....IT IS ALL ABOUT PUTTING THE FAST GUY UP FRONT EVERY RACE.... GIVE HIM ALL THE MONEY. I'M SURE THAT WILL BRING MORE SHLEPS AND CHUCKLEHEADS IN TO FILL THE FIELD. I'M SURE WADE LOVES BEING REFERED TO AS A SHLEP....LOTS OF RESPECT THERE!

[MJProcko]

You ok Bud? I think people are starting to worry.....

[bud]

Yeah I'm ok just not going to debate with someone calling people from 5th on back names or disrespecting their efforts...... not sure if acadia realizes but that's the way to loose more teams not to attract them. Funny silk and Pennick and quite a few of the front running teams would not be the heros if they hadn't clawed there way from being SHLEPS. You think the 10,38,39,98,18 or maybe 20 other teams without a win don't deserve the attention and respect that the top 5 get. I have some opinions about the person putting these people down but ill keep it to myself. And Gil I was born in 61 so I was a really well to do lil kipper or those top 10 races happened from about mid 80s to mid nineties. Give you a hint where to. Punky never took my 1000

[uticamike]

VMRS heats are done by the following:
Starting positions are done by pulling a number "luck"
Usually 3 heats with 6 qualifying per heat. Those 6 per heat will be handicapped by "plus, minus, system" how many car passed or passed by.
The rest of cars will either run a consi if needed, starting position determined by finishing order of heat or in no consi they will be lined up still by there finishing order in heats.
The past race winner can start no better than 18th.
Usually 24 cars start. But there have been exceptions. Seekonk started all 29 this weekend. Which I personally commend the track and Series for doing.
No one responded to Racerjoe here, interesting. This past weekend Matt Hirschman set fast time in trials @ the KotM. They redrew the top 10.

Chuck Hossfeld started on the pole and Matt started 8th. Matt won...nobody died. Putting the fast cars at the front is not exciting. Heat wins should be

worth points for the title chase. The VMRS qualifing isn't perfect but it's darn close. TT are like watching paint dry.;)

[Acadia]

If the cheating is stopped, it makes it less frustrating to compete, and more owners will want to run. I really want to believe that there are some that do not and will not cheat. They will come out.


Ok big A. How does any of that draw more shleps......qualifying is only one way to draw more teams. Cost reduction is the other way. BTW the MRS HAD AS MANY CARS YESTERDAY AT THE KONK AS THE WMT HAD AT LOUDEN..... $hit a couple of them were at louden..... Omg open your eyes. You wanna see speed and 2 car fields go to the drags.....

[Acadia]

Here's what has your panties pulled up tight between your cheeks, "When I go to a race, which to me is all about speed, I want to see the cars that have the highest potential for speed. That objective is achieved with time trials. I don't want some schlep getting lucky in a heat because top cars were taken out. "

The simple fact is that there are only about 6 cars that are truly competitive, or contenders, on the NWMT. Probably far less than that on the MRS, like maybe two. How many cars on the MRS have run the whole season? There's no name calling or disrespect. BTW, you have no problem with chuckleheads? There's no name calling, disrespecting, etc. Just another way of recognizing the non-contenders. Most cars outside the top ten know they don't have a chance against the top ten, they aren't deluding themselves. The experience just isn't there, lots of cars have the right parts but aren't getting it to run like the top ten.

More cars are lost when rules aren't enforced and cheating happens. Racing is the competition, not who can cheat and get away with it. It's not fun to compete against cheaters. It's also horrible racing.

So Bud, stay focused on discussing how NASCAR can help get more cars to attend.

Putting the fast cars in the back to watch them work their way to the front through the non-contenders doesn't work for me. It'll still be the same cars working their way through the pack. The same cars will be winning.

Instead, tighten up the rules and make sure all are compliant so more cars can be competitive.




Yeah I'm ok just not going to debate with someone calling people from 5th on back names or disrespecting their efforts...... not sure if acadia realizes but that's the way to loose more teams not to attract them. Funny silk and Pennick and quite a few of the front running teams would not be the heros if they hadn't clawed there way from being SHLEPS. You think the 10,38,39,98,18 or maybe 20 other teams without a win don't deserve the attention and respect that the top 5 get. I have some opinions about the person putting these people down but ill keep it to myself. And Gil I was born in 61 so I was a really well to do lil kipper or those top 10 races happened from about mid 80s to mid nineties. Give you a hint where to. Punky never took my 1000

[Revscott]

The simple fact is that there are only about 6 cars that are truly competitive, or contenders, on the NWMT. Probably far less than that on the MRS, like maybe two. How many cars on the MRS have run the whole season?

.

Putting the fast cars in the back to watch them work their way to the front through the non-contenders doesn't work for me. It'll still be the same cars working their way through the pack. The same cars will be winning.

Instead, tighten up the rules and make sure all are compliant so more cars can be competitive.


I have just sat back and read this thread over the last couple of weeks but I need to chime in after this post. People who love modified racing love modified racing no matter if its the modified bour, mrs, roc, maddog, star etc etc etc. I do remember when my dad brought me a mile from my house to Stafford for the first time in 1978. There used to be handicapping on Friday night and I cant tell you how many times I watched Dick Caso or Joe Bubbico start on the pin. Then I had the chance to watch the greats pick there way through the pack. That was exciting racing and I still miss those days. I have never liked time trials in a Modified division and I know 90% of the fans would rather have heats as well.

Also tell me how many winners have the MRS had this year? Saying only two drivers can win is so far from the truth that it honestly doesnt even make sense.

The original question was how will nascar help the mods? I think that question is very easily ansered, THEY WONT!! This question has been asked a million times and it will be asked a million more. They simply have way to much on their plates right now to even worry about it. For one its not watched country wide and it most likely never will be. It was once a place to make it to the big time. Yeah I know on this board all fender cars stink and all that but ask Preece, Goodale, Bonsignore or another young guy if they would rather drive a mod or a cup car? I think that would be easily answered.

I think once we admit that the good ole days are long gone we will be better off. The sad thing is 10 years from now we may be saying whats going on right now are the good ole days. I dont think I will be sitting under the bleachers at Stafford or Thompson any time soon.

The other thing that really bothers me is all the people talking about more shows, bigger purses, more cars and everything else but then complain about $35-$50 for a two day show. I guess none of those people have ever been to another sporting event which costs 3 times that much and also you have to pay for parking. That game lasts 3 hours and not two days. Those sports dont allow you to bring in your own coolers full of food and drink either.

Yes the economy is a big issue and I dont blame anyone for having to work instead of race. I know I had to step back this year as well because of some work changes.

Guys we all love modified racing and many have good opinions on how to fix it. The situation is getting worse and unless there are some drastic changes the sport we all love will dwindle away to a few cars. The sad thing is I honestly dont think anyone will step in to fix it.

[Gil]

Bud, The reason I asked the question about the New London Waterford Speedbowl $1,000 to win show is that I saw some old programs from the early 60s mentioning it.

[wmass01013]

[QUOTE=Acadia;170698]Here's what has your panties pulled up tight between your cheeks, "When I go to a race, which to me is all about speed, I want to see the cars that have the highest potential for speed. That objective is achieved with time trials. I don't want some schlep getting lucky in a heat because top cars were taken out. "

Then go to Drag races
if you think watching a mod race that the leader BLOWS away the field because he has the fastest car is exciting u are watching the wrong sport, the best races of the year are at NH BECAUSE they swap leads 40 or more times, the drafting PASSSING lead changes! everybody this year said the race that the 36 pitted late and passed all the cars to wim was the best this year, racing is a skill to outdrive yur competition now just blows there doors off! yeah no lead changes and one guy leading all the laps is soooooooooooo much fun

[jaFor]

Revscott... you said <"The original question was how will nascar help the mods? I think that question is very easily ansered, THEY WONT!!">... YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK! :mad:

[Axel]

We should occupy Daytona! I am not sure why, but we should.

[Andy]

You think NASCAR will ever help the tour? That pitiful excuse of a division director isn't even having his own kid run in the series next year:

Little To Run In The K&N Pro Series In 2012. Will Make Move To Touring Level, Follow In His Father's Footsteps (http://hometracks.nascar.com/jesse-ittle_to_compete_in_the_nascar-kn-pro-series-east_in_2012)

[Acadia]

I'm sure I have posted several times that the rules need to be tightened up and enforced to prevent cars from blowing away the rest of the field. I might have said that rules and enforcement needs to be fixed before formats. Well, if I didn't before, I just did.

Heats, time trials, qualifying, etc. have nothing to do with the cheating that enables a car to blow away the rest of the field. Heats, time trials, qualifying procedures, etc., will not keep a cheating car from blowing away the field. It will only make it less easy.

Has anybody ever wondered why a car can be put to the back and it roars its way to the front? Are the rest of the field schleps? Or are they rules compliant cars? Is the roaring car cheating? Do you people really want more of the Icebreaker (#36) and Loudon (#7NY) debacles to continue to happen on a regular basis? Do you just want more schlep cars so that the cheated car has more cars to pass as it goes from back to front to make it more "exciting"? That's what it looks like. And for those of you that are thinking it's the driver that enables the car to roar to the front every time, put that driver in a non-contending car and see how he does. Read these boards... you people love watching the same car roar from behind, and you call that exciting. A rules compliant car can not compete against a cheating car regardless of the qualifying or starting format. Some of you enjoy watching a cheated car steal candy from babies. And many of you roar in excitement when the same car blows away the field and leads every lap. Hypocrites one and all.

And the number of different winners is a useless metric in the MRS. The field is tremendously transient. Look at all those "x" in the stats. Look at all the drivers that won that have only run one or a couple races. If the field were steady and like 80% of the cars running were the same for every event, then maybe so. Only two cars have run the entire season.

Tighten up the rules and then vigilant enforcement. That will draw out more cars and improve competition. That just terrifies many of you. Particularly those that want to see the same car blow away the field. Hypocrites one and all.



[QUOTE=Acadia;170698]Here's what has your panties pulled up tight between your cheeks, "When I go to a race, which to me is all about speed, I want to see the cars that have the highest potential for speed. That objective is achieved with time trials. I don't want some schlep getting lucky in a heat because top cars were taken out. "

Then go to Drag races
if you think watching a mod race that the leader BLOWS away the field because he has the fastest car is exciting u are watching the wrong sport, the best races of the year are at NH BECAUSE they swap leads 40 or more times, the drafting PASSSING lead changes! everybody this year said the race that the 36 pitted late and passed all the cars to wim was the best this year, racing is a skill to outdrive yur competition now just blows there doors off! yeah no lead changes and one guy leading all the laps is soooooooooooo much fun

[csg]

I am no expert on the State of the Nascar tour; this year I only made it to 3 tour races, 2 at Stafford, and 1 at Monadnock. I have been to many more MRS shows this past year including; Oxford, Monadnock, Stafford, thompson, Seekonk and Waterford. What I like about the tour, the drivers, they are the best, the cars are meticulously maintained and beautiful. What I dont like about the tour, the cost, and the format of the show. The races are too expensive for a casual fan, 40 to 50 bucks for a show, i see cup races being advertised for less. This is minor league nascar, I think pricing should be comparable to minor league hockey or baseball. In my opinion, the Tour is not worth the premium price over the MRS shows or some of the weekly shows. You see better "big name" drivers but not necessary better racing. Time trials stink from a fans point of view. Its just not exciting. Oh the 36 was a tenth quicker then the 4. Who cares what the electronic eye says? While you can argue heats, in which all the cars make it, isnt thrilling drama, you have to admit its better to see multiple cars on the track then one going two laps by itself. You want to keep time trial do it based on practice times why waste an hour sending out one car at a time. Start em straight up, no handicapping, lets see how boring we can make this race. I enjoy the smaller tracks, the quarter mile venues are my favorite as the cars stay bunched up and race side by side. Most of the tour races are conducted on the half mile or larger configuration, as Nascar has priced them out of the smaller grandstand venues. Due to these reasons I do not make as many tour races as I used to.

What I see as the big problem, costs to compete and lack of sponsorship. The licensing, the tires, the engines, and the travel are out of control. I believe the licensing keeps regular weekly competitors from racing at their home track. How exciting would it be to see us local boys v them outside tour drivers for the local fans. I didnt notice one Monadnock weekly competitor defend their home turf when the tour came to town. Why? Tires you need a second tire manufacturer, it keeps costs down, improves the quality of the tire and increases competition on the race track. A strict tire inventory and limit the amount of tires a team can buy. If you have two manufacturers you may get the teams some sponsorship from tire manufacturers Engines are out of control, i hear some are going for 40 to 50k, for what 5k to win. You win every race you might make money. You pop a motor or put a car in the wall well forget about breaking even. I dont know enough to come up with an idea to make a spec engine or crate engine competitive with these cubic $ engines. Must be some method of equalizing them, rev chip weight break or something. Travel 2 and 3 day shows, are not necessary, you can conduct a race in one day, do it. Just costs money to the teams hauling back and forth, unnecessary hotel bills, and deters drivers from far away from competing. I cant imagine more then 1 or 2 cars made money on that trip to Ontario. Nice a new track which is needed but this one was way too far away. How many suitable asphalt race tracks did the hauler drive past to get to Ontario. We do not have one race in Upstate NY which has modified tracks. There has to be a reason, Nascar tour costs too much.

Television. what happened to the VS and Speed coverage? You have that. it helps attract sponsors. How many tour cars have empty rear quarter panels? I am guessing these teams are not turning away money.

Until costs decrease you will see a steady decline in all local auto racing activity. I don't see it getting much better any time soon and I don't see nascar doing anything about it. They will run the modifieds as they have until it doesn't make them money or starts costing them money. I am guessing the big brass at Nascar South probably have never even seen a Nascar Modified race in person. Well maybe when they run in conjunction with the cuppers.

[Acadia]

I have often wondered about using practice times for setting the starting grid and ditching the time trial. That would really help go to a one day race format. Two or three practice sessions, lap times are recorded, field set by fastest practice times. No more race versus qualifying setups. Just set the car up for the race, practice and tweak it. Sort them out by practice times, and all races will be impound races. That should simplify things.

Heat races are expensive. More laps on the cars, motors, tires, and risk of damage. If costs are already out of control, heat races are just too costly and too risky.

[bud]

Very well said csg..... Acadia obviously u don't like teddy....lol. Stay focused after he wins again sunday. I'm gettin the feeling you are goodfella on another board. You want total absolute speed try to keep up as he pushes every gray area available! See he gets it! It's about the show!

[LegendCar20]

The simple fact is that there are only about 6 cars that are truly competitive, or contenders, on the NWMT. Probably far less than that on the MRS, like maybe two. How many cars on the MRS have run the whole season? There's no name calling or disrespect. BTW, you have no problem with chuckleheads? There's no name calling, disrespecting, etc. Just another way of recognizing the non-contenders. Most cars outside the top ten know they don't have a chance against the top ten, they aren't deluding themselves. The experience just isn't there, lots of cars have the right parts but aren't getting it to run like the top ten.


Only 2 competitive cars on the MRS????
We have almost had as many different winners as races this season on the MRS. There are 10-15 cars each week that can win on the circuit hands down.
The best racing, affordablity, and fun is with the MRS.
Olde School Racing far as I'm concerned.

[Sicklajoie]

So what was the state of the modified division back in 97 & 98 when Stefanik won 23 out of 44 races?

[Acadia]

So you want more of this, or should I say, you want to make sure that this isn't stopped when it shows signs of happening?



So what was the state of the modified division back in 97 & 98 when Stefanik won 23 out of 44 races?

[Racerjoe]

I believe 9 cars have made everyshow this season.....and most if not all including others are capable of winning any race.. Only 3 cars this season have had more than 1 win.

[Racerjoe]

That being the VMRS tour.

[Jaws]

Wow, is this still going, I gave a few thoughts 6 pages back that were not well received.

Pretty much 5 pages of *****ing about the tour and each other.

It all boils down to money, money that it costs to race, money that needs to come from sponsors, money that needs to be paid to the teams to keep them racing.

It also comes down to costs, they are way too high and need to come down.

The ROC is trying to contain costs with tires that they tested last week, the out come has not been announced but they are trying.

The WMT has to contain the costs of a race, tires, lodging, travel, fuel, motors or the trend for less cars will continue.

A promising sign is they still may have 35 cars at the World Series even though several teams are staying home.

Some teams that did not race at Thompson all year raced at the open shows and those are the teams that they need to figure out how to get involved with the tour.

As much as we like to see the big teams race I also miss the smaller teams that have dropped out, Johnny Bush, Renee Dupuis, Dave Etheridge, Joe Hartman, Jake Marosz and others .

NASCAR and the teams need to sit down sooner than later and figure this out and they need to get the tour back on TV!!!

[BigMac]

I'll give you this, Nascar does need to figure out how to let in these smaller teams that just want to run one or two races. There are no more Outlaws like the old days. Not sure I agree as much about the travel. The tour only ran 2 races outside of the northeast. Bristol and Canada. A bunch of teams skipped one or both events. Everything else was in CT, NH and Riverhead. I'm not sure how you can travel any less. They most likely will only be at NHMS twice in 2012. Some savings there. These trips would be a little cheaper with a pickup and box trailer instead of a $100,000 hauler. Just saying...

[limodmaniac]

I don't think the ROC idea of 10 inch tires is the way to go.

If ROC goes that way, I will be done with the ROC

[JWfor8x]

Wow, is this still going, I gave a few thoughts 6 pages back that were not well received.

Pretty much 5 pages of *****ing about the tour and each other.

It all boils down to money, money that it costs to race, money that needs to come from sponsors, money that needs to be paid to the teams to keep them racing.

It also comes down to costs, they are way too high and need to come down.

The ROC is trying to contain costs with tires that they tested last week, the out come has not been announced but they are trying.

The WMT has to contain the costs of a race, tires, lodging, travel, fuel, motors or the trend for less cars will continue.

A promising sign is they still may have 35 cars at the World Series even though several teams are staying home.

Some teams that did not race at Thompson all year raced at the open shows and those are the teams that they need to figure out how to get involved with the tour.

As much as we like to see the big teams race I also miss the smaller teams that have dropped out, Johnny Bush, Renee Dupuis, Dave Etheridge, Joe Hartman, Jake Marosz and others .

NASCAR and the teams need to sit down sooner than later and figure this out and they need to get the tour back on TV!!!

Jaws, I pretty much agree with what you said. One thing that really hit a nerve with me was this paragraph...

<As much as we like to see the big teams race I also miss the smaller teams that have dropped out, Johnny Bush, Renee Dupuis, Dave Etheridge, Joe Hartman, Jake Marosz and others .>

I can't remember how many tour races I have seen at Riverhead where Jake Marosz in his old #9 car practiced then did his two qualifying laps and then it was on the trailer for him. In the early days of the tour, they had time trials and then heat races, so he at least had an opportunity to race. Now, with the flash format, a guy like him has an outside chance to make the show. It had to cost him a fortune to go to the island, but he did it every year. You are absolutly right. NASCAR and the teams do need to work together to try and control the costs and if they could get back on tv, it could only help.

[Acadia]

Okay, so the majority of us agree costs have to be reduced. We're making progress.

Not sure if licensing will be a big way to do that. The MRS crew license is only $10, but the crew is required to buy competition insurance, and I think that insurance is included in the cost of the NASCAR license. Not sure, but I think that's how it is. Not sure about the cost of the competition insurance either to see how it stacks up. But then, licensing is not a big cost driver. If a nascar license costs $300/season, that works out to about $22/event. How many crew? Eight? Ten? That works out to about $300/event in licensing fees. It costs about $6,000 to run an event. Need to look for bigger cost factors. It's certainly not trivial, but we need to look for more. The one-day event format will be a big help. Adding cost is bad, no good.

There's plenty of teams in the MRS that probably would like to run a few NWMT events. Looks like almost half of them ran the Tour regularly at one point, if not most of their modified racing careers before they went to the MRS. What will it take to get 10 of them to show up at Tour events? Why don't they run the Tour instead?

If cost is a big factor, then I maintain rules compliance is the biggest influence. It's difficult to impossible to compete against cheating cars, and expensive. If the rules enforcement was amped up, I think more cars would attempt to run the Tour.

Here's something to consider: the carburetor.

You can buy one OEM stock for about $700. Teams end up paying several times that amount for a massaged version. And they probably have two or three race ready carburetors. What is being massaged you ask? Let's take a look at the rules to see what is allowed.

The Main Body
From the rulebook:

"Main bodies must remain as manufactured. Machining, reshaping, grinding, polishing, or drilling holes will not be permitted."


The Boosters
From the rulebook:

"Size and shape must not be altered."


The Venturis
From the rulebook:

"Altering or reshaping of the venturi in any manner will not be permitted."


Throttle Body Plate
From the rulebook:"The carburetor throttle body must be used as provided by the manufacturer. ... The carburetor throttle body must not be altered in shape or size."

Throttle Plates (Butterflies)
From the rulebook:

"The throttle plates (butterflies) must be magnetic steel and must not be thinned or tapered."



Throttle Shafts
From the rulebook:

"Shafts must remain standard production size and must not be thinned or cut in any manner."


Per the rules, nothing in the air path is to be modified.

It is common knowledge that the carburetors are being modified. The reason why the carb is modified is because it is the single point choke of performance, for a good reason, and the slightest tweak can bring great results. The carburetor section of the rulebook needs to be rewritten to make it clear that the carburetors are to be used box stock, no modifications at all. That can turn out to be a great cost reduction, and a performance equalizer that will keep cars from running away with the race, no more freight trains, keep cars bunched up and actually competing.

Maybe more cars will then participate when they have chance.

[bud]

I might have said carb and compression waaaaay back on pg 1...lol

[Acadia]

I might have said carb and compression waaaaay back on pg 1...lol

And here's what you said waaaaaaay back on pg 2, "Divers themselves could reduce costs by not having 15 cautions per race. Another area not mentioned is why does a mod chassis cost so much? Maybe way less compression and way bigger carb.... "

So you think the carb was your idea? Bud, I said the specified carb needs to be used per the rules to make sure it doesn't get any bigger. You said "way bigger carb". Please explain that. Go ahead, compare what you said to what I said. LOL

The rules are written to make sure the specified 390 CFM carb gets no bigger at all. You need to understand that if a carb like an 800 CFM is put on one of these engines, it will make an additional 200-250 HP. NASCAR has been working to contain the maximum HP of these cars, and the last thing most of these drivers need is an additional 200 HP.

LOL

[Acadia]

What about rules enforcement? That seems to be getting avoided or evaded any way possible. Too close to home for some of you?

It wouldn't make sense to make more rules or change the rules if they aren't going to be strictly enforced.

Some of you ridicule how the same car runs away with the race, but you also cheer when that one car runs away with the race. It's obvious. As if it's not bad when your favorite car starts from the pole and runs away with it.

Does anybody think that rules enforcement can help get more cars to show up? I would be pretty disgusted if I were doing everything within the rules and was still getting blown away. I would look for somewhere else to run.

It could be the simplest, most direct and cost effective way to eliminate the case of the same car running away with the race, freight-training, etc. If that's what you really want to happen.

It seems to have helped some this year. Needs to be better.

There is competition to NASCAR now, and the days of NASCAR being a monopoly are over. NASCAR needs to become very professional in how it conducts itself. And that means it must stop those that operate outside the rules. It's obvious when it happens and NASCAR looks silly and complicit. That why the MRS has been successful, and the fans see it and are disgusted. The fans want to see racing, not shooting fish in a barrel.

[Goldy]

With all due respect here Acadia – you have REALLY belabored your point here about rule infractions – I’m not there every race watching what they do, but I think the NASCAR Officials do a pretty good job about ensuring cars are legal. This thread was about “How will NASCAR try to help?” – are they really going to help here by having more thorough inspections? Is that going to really keep owners participating in this tour? Is that going to bring back those that have left?

I’ve been reading along here; I had feedback way back on page 1 to go after areas around scheduling in an effort to have a direct impact to all team owners and their bottom line.

Which is a more appropriate reason why Don Owner will not run the tour next year? Is it because…

Other competitors are bending the rules, tinkering with their cabs …or….

Licensing, fees, travel costs (lodging, fuel), tires, and reduced payouts??

I’d have to think the latter here.. but that’s just me..

For what it's worth -I thought MJProco had an excellent reply back there on pg2.. well thought and well said..

[Axel]

Goldy -- what about my post about occupying Daytona?

[Goldy]

Oh yea... that too.. how about we drum up a tactical plan over a couple suds at the PNH?

:cheers:

[limodmaniac]

This could be a good start:

In Kevin Rice's article in Area Auto-

Bob Mueller, "Troyer Bob" hopes to stay involved by helping Nascar with ideas for the betterment of the Modified Tour. Mueller would like to see more one day shows to save teams time and money. Hef feels that, and some schedule adjustments to spread out the schedule better, could help the tour.

I personally hope he can have some input. That's what Nascar needs to do - they need to listen!

[Acadia]

So let's go over MJProcko's points...

First: It appears that insurance would be a problem here. Not sure, but that's what it looks like. NASCAR would have to restructure their insurance deal. Not pleasant.

Second: Semi-merge the Tours, I assume the North and South. What? I thought there was agreement to reduce travel, lodging, etc. This would increase travel for both Tours, completely wrong. Look at how many cars didn't go to Delaware and Bristol. Look at how the Southern race at the UNOH event at Thompson had to be loaded with "extras".

Third: Increase purses. Wow, this is pure genius. What took so long? Okay, go get the additional funding. Let us know how you do.

Second Third: Make more mods legal. Well, that's funny. I'm proposing the same thing, but I think we should make what have more legal, well completely legal. How can we make more mods legal when that seems to be a deficiency in the first place that ruins the races. Cars going start to finish, little passing, or the cars that magically roar to life with 20 laps left (even without tires) that then go to the front with ease.

Fourth: TV package. So people can save their $50 ticket fee, gas, and what they'd spend at the concessions, and watch it at home. It's expensive to go to the track, especially if bringing a kid or two. Attendance will be impacted. Needs further analysis, as in how much of that TV revenue will make it to the track and teams.

Last: Forget 'flash races", "no stop" races or "make it like the MRS" ... blahblahblah. That's good.


Goldy, you can reduce travel, licenses, etc., but the racing will still stink if cars continue to run away with the races because rules are allowed to be exceeded. So therefore, I must say that NASCAR will help by making sure that rules are rules and they will be strictly enforced.

The rules are setup to establish parity. There isn't parity when we have a season like this where a car ran away with it and stunk up the races.

There was some high profile cheating that was exposed this season. Do you really think that reducing license fees, travel, lodging, etc. will help to compete against that? The answer to that is "NO" and the racing will still stink.



With all due respect here Acadia – you have REALLY belabored your point here about rule infractions – I’m not there every race watching what they do, but I think the NASCAR Officials do a pretty good job about ensuring cars are legal. This thread was about “How will NASCAR try to help?” – are they really going to help here by having more thorough inspections? Is that going to really keep owners participating in this tour? Is that going to bring back those that have left?

I’ve been reading along here; I had feedback way back on page 1 to go after areas around scheduling in an effort to have a direct impact to all team owners and their bottom line.

Which is a more appropriate reason why Don Owner will not run the tour next year? Is it because…

Other competitors are bending the rules, tinkering with their cabs …or….


Licensing, fees, travel costs (lodging, fuel), tires, and reduced payouts??

I’d have to think the latter here.. but that’s just me..

For what it's worth -I thought MJProco had an excellent reply back there on pg2.. well thought and well said..

[csg]

Goldy -- what about my post about occupying Daytona?

Good point. I wouldnt mind occupying Daytona Beach for a few days.

[Sicklajoie]

Good Gawd Goodfell....er Acadia.... we get your point. You want more thorough inspections and stricter rules. We got that on page 1 and every page after that. I think it's funny that you're picking apart everyone elses ideas, and just sticking with rules, more importantly, carb rules.
You say this season one car has run away and stunk up the races. How is that different from any other season? In the past, whether it be Santos, Lia, TC, Hirschman, Reggie, Richie, and especially Stefanik in 96 and 97, there's always been one car that's the rabbit that everyone's chasing.
Maybe it's just me, but since the Little entourage has taken over the Tour, there's been way TOO many rules to the point where everyone's equal. That's led to a lot of the freight train racing that we see today. Everyone's running the same speed which leads to little or no passing. With all the parity through the field now, if someone hits a hot setup, whether legally or illegally, and is a tenth or two quicker than everyone else, it really shows up on the racetrack.
Let's just cut to the chase, would you be perfectly content with the Tour if Ted Christopher wasn't racing? Because that sure seems to be what you're getting at. You've just beat around the bush a million times without actually saying it.

[Jaws]

Goldy -- what about my post about occupying Daytona?

I like it! I'm in but it has to be during speedweeks so we can go to New Smyrna! Lets occupy there but only nights when the tour cars are there. :)

[wmass01013]

With all due respect here Acadia – you have REALLY belabored your point here about rule infractions – I’m not there every race watching what they do, but I think the NASCAR Officials do a pretty good job about ensuring cars are legal. This thread was about “How will NASCAR try to help?” – are they really going to help here by having more thorough inspections? Is that going to really keep owners participating in this tour? Is that going to bring back those that have left?

I’ve been reading along here; I had feedback way back on page 1 to go after areas around scheduling in an effort to have a direct impact to all team owners and their bottom line.

Which is a more appropriate reason why Don Owner will not run the tour next year? Is it because…

Other competitors are bending the rules, tinkering with their cabs …or….

Licensing, fees, travel costs (lodging, fuel), tires, and reduced payouts??

I’d have to think the latter here.. but that’s just me..

For what it's worth -I thought MJProco had an excellent reply back there on pg2.. well thought and well said..

I agreee i think the least of the WMT worrries is CHEATING, cost, and purses which always seem to be smaller and fees to run a race which prevent independent teams from showing up plus yes race procedure and like most i think CHAD LITTLE ADDS NOTHING TO THIS SERIES AS DIRECTOR

[Acadia]

Are you really saying that:

1. Least of the problems are cheating

2. Least of the problems are cost

3. Least of the problems are purses

4. Least of the problems are fees

5. Least of the problems are race procedures





I agreee i think the least of the WMT worrries is CHEATING, cost, and purses which always seem to be smaller and fees to run a race which prevent independent teams from showing up plus yes race procedure and like most i think CHAD LITTLE ADDS NOTHING TO THIS SERIES AS DIRECTOR

[Acadia]

There is still too much wrecking going on. It's not so much aggressive as it is just careless.

[JWfor8x]

In a replly to MJProcko, Acadia said, in part...

<Fourth: TV package. So people can save their $50 ticket fee, gas, and what they'd spend at the concessions, and watch it at home. It's expensive to go to the track, especially if bringing a kid or two. Attendance will be impacted. Needs further analysis, as in how much of that TV revenue will make it to the track and teams.>

If I have the $, I'm going to the track and I am spending the money. I That's what I did throughout the 1980's, 1990's and the early 2000's. Now, my income is severely limited and I have not been able to travel to races like I would like to. Yeah, I would like more tv for purely selfish reasons. I also understand that if I was in position to sponsor a car, I would want the maximum exposure for my sponsorship dollars. If I were to sponsor a race car, I would want the money to go to a team that was willing to actively promote my product or service and it would not be for a touring series that had no tv exposure. A good tv package could also help the tour by exposing the product to many potential new fans and sponsors that wouldn't ever see the modifieds without tv. How can that hurt?

[wmass01013]

Are you really saying that:

1. Least of the problems are cheating



2. Least of the problems are cost


3. Least of the problems are purses



4. Least of the problems are fees
5. Least of the problems are race procedures




Cheating to me has never been a problem, u have an issue now and then one thing i thinK NASCAR does do a good job at is tech for cheating

the others ARE the problems, you tell me why no outsiders come to race a WMT event and if you HONESTLY think cheating makes guys stay away?

[stoningtonmodmania]

Ok the thing i see most in the 7page thread is "illegal cars" my question is who is illegal? if there is one there is one thing i think nascar dose right is tech.

[mikel 3]

I read all the posts all ninety seven of the some good some not so good.can we please put it to bed now,its not going to change.we still draw decent crowds for most races and get to watch the best racing nascar has to offer period.speaking of crowds check out the last two laps of the martinsville late model raceshowed on the crome horn site.if there was 500 people in the stands the were lucky.at least we really support our sreies through thick and thin,thanks.

[mikel 3]

oops i goofed i meant the speed 51 site

[CuriousGeorge]

Ive been waiting for NASCAR to chime in :lol:

[bud]

It's obvious no one here is as smart as Acadia. But if you reduce compression and use a larger carb you save wear on the engine and maybe just maybe take the illegal carb mods out of the picture..... as it no longer is the huge restriction it is now....... Again not anywhere as brilliant as the big "A" but I'm pretty sure there would't be a 250 HP gain if you reduced compression but again I'm far from the expert that the big "A" is. We would also remain in the same speed range so speed on the track is about the same. Someone mentioned they miss Jake and some of the other competitors that no longer show. THE ONLY REASON TO HAVE HEATS IS TO LURE THEM BACK. They don't show up and run just two laps and go home.PLEASE DON'T LET THAT STATEMENT OPEN ANOTHER CAN OF WORMS....GOD PLEASE ......LOL
Is it a coincidence tba Acadia and a$$ both start with a big A

[Acadia]

Bud, I understand the sentimental value, but the NWMT does not need to fill out the field with cars such as the 9. The only reason that car made fields the last few seasons is because the fields were short. Also, that car barely made a few laps before it had to retire. Do you really want to put more cars like that in the field? Why???? I prefer to get Art Barry and the 21 back.

The cars the NWMT needs are the top ten or fifteen from the MRS or ROC, or bring other competitive cars out of mothballs.

Bateman saw an opportunity, and what that was I don't think most of us know. There was discontent with NASCAR, exactly what I'm not sure, so Bateman saw the opportunity and went with it. I don't think it had much to do with heat races and time trials. If we can understand why the cars left NASCAR and went to MRS, we can then figure out what NASCAR needs to do to get those competitive cars back on the NWMT.

I know as a fan that pays lots of money to attend these events, I am disgusted that disparities go on as long as they do before the cheating is revealed. Now put yourself in the shoes of the other owners, drivers and crews that have to compete against that cheating. Just about any grass on the other side of the fence is going to look very attractive.

[Bob T. Racer]

Acadia: Have you ever owned a Tour car?

[Acadia]

Acadia: Have you ever owned a Tour car?


Please tell me what you think this means. And be careful.

[csg]

MRS was created when a local NH track dropped the modified division. I believe it was Claremont, now known as Twinstates, that decided to drop the modifieds which created the MRS tour. The drivers were accustomed to heat races and handicapping from their weekly routes and they kept it for the new tour. It was also a selling point for fans and promoters. I dont think it was started with the intention of going up against or taking over for the Nascar tour. It was intended to get cars out of mothballs and onto a race track. The first year there were a few cars which which would have looked better as scrap metal then a modified.

What happened, the MRS offered the lower budget teams an affordable way to go racing locally. Now, they are taking some of the less funded cars from Nascar, they offer more races in a smaller geographic region, and have become a more affordable way to race regionally in a modified. The competition has increased to the point where the equipment is on par with the big tour and many tour drivers will run some MRS shows. The success of the MRS series has shown modified racing can survive and thrive in the region and has actually increased modified racing overall, as Monadnock, Star, and thompson has started running the division as part of their weekly shows.

The MRS is not the Nascar Tour. It is a good series. It is modifieds on short tracks, just enjoy.

[Sicklajoie]

Please tell me what you think this means. And be careful.
LMAO
Are you kidding me? Are you running for office? Just answer the simple question!!!
BTW I like how you ignored my post. You could answer my question, too.

[Acadia]

The MRS is not the Nascar Tour. It is a good series. It is modifieds on short tracks, just enjoy.


That is almost profound. MRS is not NASCAR Tour. We shouldn't think to turn one into the other.

How do we know the MRS is less costly to run? I'm thinking because they run on short short tracks, uses less car (wear and tear) and less tires, and overall, less racing distance run per event. The heat races have to be more costly than time trials.

[Racerjoe]

I DO own a tour type Modified and I can tell you with all the confidence in the world that the VMRS is far less expensive to run than the Nascar tour. To be fair running a weekly mod at one track, like Star or Monadnock is less expensive than running the VMRS.

[Acadia]

Thanks, can you explain the cost drivers when considering NWMT vs MRS?

[MXCHAMP04]

Thanks, can you explain the cost drivers when considering NWMT vs MRS?I have to say after reading this whole post, I can say with confidence, that you're not the brightest candle on the cake. People have asked straight forward questions and you give a politicians response. And if you can't see that racing the MRS is much cheaper than running the WMT, you really are out to lunch. But for the life of me explain this. How does tighter inspection to catch cheating make it cheaper to run a modified. That has really been your only response to any question. Get over it.

[Acadia]

Hey, I explained that already. Here I go again... just for you.

An OEM box stock NWMT Tour Carb can be had for about $700. A massaged and therefore illegal carb goes for several thousand dollars. That's just for starters. The way the rules are written, the air path isn't to be touched. It is expensive to do that high precision machining, and try to make it retain the stock appearance. Now teams that want to stay legal have to compete against that and that takes spending money to get new parts, fresh parts, more parts, better, parts, over and over. Constantly scratching their heads trying to go faster legally to compete with the cheating cars. So if a cheating car is caught and stopped, the cars that operate legally do not have to go through the effort and expense of trying to catch up with the advantage the cheating car has. It's one of those things that are so obvious it's overlooked.

No politician's response, it doesn't matter if I own a Tour car. How many people here do or did? Keep it relevant. Is this an owners-only forum?

For those other owners out there, how do/did you like competing against cheating cars? Was it fun to spend all that money knowing you had little chance of winning? How did it feel once the cheating was caught? Were you relieved or pissed that it took so long? Look at the frustration expressed by Tour guys at the advantage the 7NY had, and that was long before the car was inspected in post-race and NC.

I am really quite surprised at what looks like denial that cheating exists.

So the question I asked is how is the MRS less expensive to run? What is done differently that is less expensive? Here we are concluding that costs have to come down in the NWMT, but people are yapping away to do away with time trials and go to heat races. Or maybe they can afford to do heat races because of a large cost reduction some other way. I have to think that heat races are more expensive than two time trial laps. But hey, that's just me, and maybe I'm not as smart as many of you. Be careful how you interpret that. LOL




I have to say after reading this whole post, I can say with confidence, that you're not the brightest candle on the cake. People have asked straight forward questions and you give a politicians response. And if you can't see that racing the MRS is much cheaper than running the WMT, you really are out to lunch. But for the life of me explain this. How does tighter inspection to catch cheating make it cheaper to run a modified. That has really been your only response to any question. Get over it.

[bud]

EXACTLY....That's why I'm sure he's goodfella. Did he get blocked on the blog?

[bud]

Ok. Big A. Not trying to be a wise guy but the MRS runs 100 green flag laps. So after factoring in the WMT caution laps the MRS probably runs close to the same amount of green flag laps if not more.

[Acadia]

Okay, that's progress.

Yeah, I realized that a while ago when I compared MRS tracks to NWMT tracks. This discussion happened a long time ago, and I used data such as track length and laps to show total distance of a race. Using irrefutable data upset some people. I'll see if I still have that analysis. However, MRS laps are shorter. Thompson is the biggest MRS track, and MRS runs on mostly 1/4 - 1/3 mile-ish tracks. The typical NWMT track is like a 1/2 mile. Riverhead, Monadnack and Waterford are the only NWMT tracks under 1/2 mile. (I also realize that those three are not always on the schedule). So the total distance of a MRS race is less given roughly the same amount of laps. Less wear and tear? I don't have the analysis around, but a MRS event is like 30-40% less total distance than a NWMT race. Is that a factor as to why MRS is less costly to run?


Ok. Big A. Not trying to be a wise guy but the MRS runs 100 green flag laps. So after factoring in the WMT caution laps the MRS probably runs close to the same amount of green flag laps if not more.

[RaceVoice]

There are several other issues that make the VMRS less expensive to run. One is the travel and schedule. The NWMT has 4 2 day events, (Thomspon and Stafford) and another three 3 day events, (NHMS) not to mention the travel to Bristol and Canada.

There is the additional travel fuel for those two events, not to mention the lodging and eating out for all of the 2+ day shows. The VMRS only has 2 two day shows. All others on the schedule are 1 day shows. They also do not change tires during an event, so you tire bill overall is less, even though the tire cost is about the same.

Then there is the licensing fee for the two tours. I do not know the numbers, and I am sure there are those on here that know better than I, but I believe the VMRS is less expensive than the NASCAR licenses needed for the Tour.

The one argument that I don't get is which one is better. They are both great series, with great drivers and good support. The fans are there for both series. I say let's enjoy them both, and go to as many races as you can.

You want more cars in both series, yet you want more at the local level also. One will always take away from the other. There has to be a balance somewhere there. not sure what that is.

The discussion on how to increase the counts in the NWMT can start with the officiating. I am not saying it is bad, or it is good. I am not informed enough to make an assumption on that. But if you perceive it is not fair, then it is not. If you perceive it is, then it is. It is not so much a cost aspect, but more of a fairness aspect.

The purse structure is much worse than it was 10 years ago, when you had major sponsors, TV, and more shows. Without the Sanctioning Body getting involved, there is nothing you can do for that.

Bugsy once told me about a conversation he had with the owner of New Smyrna Speedway many years ago. They were discussing the age old conversation of the drivers paying to put on the show. The owner told him he could open the gates, pay no purse, and there would still be cars paying their way in to race. That is just how it is. And competitors do that all over the country in some of these entry level divisions. I'm not saying NASCAR would do that, but it does make it interesting to think about.

Look at it from NASCAR's point of view. They get license requests for probably 100+ teams for the Modified series, including north and south. The counts in the north continue to be relativly healthy, but off from where they have been. Tracks are still paying the money to get the Tour in. It is a win-win for them.

For the tracks, it can be a difficult decision. At Seekonk, the net take from a NWMT show, from the last time they ran in 2006, was pretty much the same as the VMRS. The cost for the NASCAR show is/was about 4 times more for the VMRS. The fan turnout is also less at many of their events. The car count can be comparable, but your advertising is much less, your back and front gate prices can be less, as you don't have that big money payout to get the tour, and if the weather is iffy, and fans decide not to support the show, you don't take as big of a hit.

6 of one, half dozen of another. I enjoy both series, and wish I could support them more often, instead of waiting for them to come to me.

[Bob T. Racer]

Acadia: I think you write on here just so you can read it back to yourself later. If you're for real, then you really DON'T have a clue to what you're talking about! Not going to get into a big debate here, like you are with other people. If you're new to the sport you should just sit back and pay attention to what other people are saying until you learn something. Either that or go out and buy a TOUR car or a VMRS car, then maybe you'll have half a clue of what it's all about to own a car. When you do, then maybe you'll know the difference between the Tour and the VMRS.

[MXCHAMP04]

Okay, that's progress.

Yeah, I realized that a while ago when I compared MRS tracks to NWMT tracks. This discussion happened a long time ago, and I used data such as track length and laps to show total distance of a race. Using irrefutable data upset some people. I'll see if I still have that analysis. However, MRS laps are shorter. Thompson is the biggest MRS track, and MRS runs on mostly 1/4 - 1/3 mile-ish tracks. The typical NWMT track is like a 1/2 mile. Riverhead, Monadnack and Waterford are the only NWMT tracks under 1/2 mile. (I also realize that those three are not always on the schedule). So the total distance of a MRS race is less given roughly the same amount of laps. Less wear and tear? I don't have the analysis around, but a MRS event is like 30-40% less total distance than a NWMT race. Is that a factor as to why MRS is less costly to run?OK, lets see if you can grasp this. MRS max 3-4 tires per event vs 8-10 at $150.00 a piece. MRS at monadnock 100 lap main plus 12 lap heats. 112 laps. WMT 200 laps plus 2 laps of time trials. Gas 10.00 per gallon. Plus the lap difference at thompson and stafford. MRS no second ignition. ? cost. Nascar liscense for each member 200-300? No license fees for MRS or drivers license fee. Car entry fees are less. Pit gate fees are less. Farthest travel for MRS is Maine. WMT is bristol tenessee and canada. Add passport fees for those who didn't have one. Multiple night shows are over twice as many on WMT= hotel, food,misc expenses. Cost to change the car around to run a road course for WMT, quite expensive from what I hear. I'm sure i'm missing something.

[MJProcko]

OK, lets see if you can grasp this. MRS max 3-4 tires per event vs 8-10 at $150.00 a piece. MRS at monadnock 100 lap main plus 12 lap heats. 112 laps. WMT 200 laps plus 2 laps of time trials. Gas 10.00 per gallon. Plus the lap difference at thompson and stafford. MRS no second ignition. ? cost. Nascar liscense for each member 200-300? No license fees for MRS or drivers license fee. Car entry fees are less. Pit gate fees are less. Farthest travel for MRS is Maine. WMT is bristol tenessee and canada. Add passport fees for those who didn't have one. Multiple night shows are over twice as many on WMT= hotel, food,misc expenses. Cost to change the car around to run a road course for WMT, quite expensive from what I hear. I'm sure i'm missing something.

Why is that the MRS folks always forget a few things when comparing "costs"..... 112 laps? Imiginary caution laps again. unless they click on the scoreboard they don't exist.... funny when I was at Waterford to kick off the season last year they went around that track atleast 200 times, closer to 250. Obviously not the norm but they do circle the track under yellow so unless they run hybrids in the MRS tour, which I doubt since there were cars running out of gas, you should really consider those costs.

Another thing overlooked here is that the purses for the WMT is 4 to 10 times greater depeding on the event. Also there is a big difference in the point fund so keep that in mind also.

The license fees I addressed in my original post, get rid of additional fees for folks that are already holding a Nascar weekly license.

As for travel, the MRS isn't all that big of a savings as they travel a much greater distance over New England than the WMT. Ask where the majority of mod fans in southern NE rather travel to see a mod race, Bristol or Oxford Plains.

[Racerjoe]

I'll bite the bullet here. I've run (attempted) to make every MRS show for the past 4 years. I certainly consider my team to be a pretty much "low buck" team. Our cost estimate for each MRS show for the past 4 years has been @ $700-900 per race. That includes
Engine $7000.
Tires $ 8410.00
Fuel $ 3200.00
Licenses $ 250.00
Entry Fee $ 800.00
Maintenance $ 1600.00

Total $ 21260
Minimum payout $7400.00

Net loss $13860.00 $866.25 per race Some years have done much better and some worst, depends on wrecks, luck....etc.
Obviously I didn't include pit passes fuel for hauler, tolls, etc. No matter what tour we have to pay.
I dare to find any Nascar mod that runs every show that only looses 14k per year season "average car".
And before I get attacked here. I know there's plenty of exceptions and extras that I have not mentioned just trying to cover the basics.

[Acadia]

The rulebooks explain the differences rather well, and that tells what can be expected as far as costs to run. The heavy hitters on cost are in there: tires, engine, etc. Yeah, compare the rules first, then decide what series to run. There are rules. Read the rules, follow the rules.

Don't just focus on cars that may be leaving, new cars arrive too. There are some pretty good recent additions, such as Rudolph and Bonsignore.

And let's also acknowledge that the MRS needs more cars to show up. Although the MRS has a very long roster, barely enough cars show up at each event. How many cars DNQ'd this year because of full fields? How many cars DNQ'd per event this year because of full fields? So before you make it look like the Tour needs help, look no further than the MRS. The MRS is already the low-cost series and it is having a hard time drawing cars. I'd be more worried about MRS car counts than NWMT car counts.

I also don't think cars are replaced as often on the MRS, there's probably some pretty old chassis on the MRS circuit. Is the old Stefanik 6x still running? Also, I doubt the MRS is populated with fresh built Hutter, Bruneau, Tony's, and Performance Technology power, or frequently refreshed.

The NWMT has had a low cost spec engine for a couple years, and nobody is running it. I think there was one car running it last year, not impressive. Do you understand that?

There are many things that can be done to reduce cost, such as I mentioned a couple pages earlier, and still have the same built car which is what you all want to see. That might get a few more cars to show up but I doubt it will get the ticket price to that of a MRS event, in case that's what you are expecting. If you want to run the NWMT but don't want to spend those kinda bucks, don't complain the NWMT is too expensive. There are plenty of things people want but don't spend the money on. It's not because it's too expensive.

How about when GM built a Cadillac on the Nova platform. How successful was that? It wasn't. It was still a Nova.

Look, if you want to see the names such as Silk, Santos, Szegedy, Beers, Bonsignore, Rudolph, Stefanik, Coby, Preece, etc., you have to go to the NWMT. The NWMT is not going to turn into another MRS. They are two completely different products and markets. If you want to see the high power cars, new cars, the fresh cars, the well maintained cars, the nicely painted cars, you have to go to the NWMT. And you have to realize you have to pay the commensurate ticket prices. If you don't want to pay the NWMT ticket prices, go to the MRS, SK, Sunoco, and other Weekly Series. But stop wasting your time thinking you are going to bring the NWMT product to the the MRS market at the MRS cost and price structure, or change the NWMT rules to the MRS rules.

There's nothing to debate. Most of you just don't get that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and nobody should want to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse.


Acadia: I think you write on here just so you can read it back to yourself later. If you're for real, then you really DON'T have a clue to what you're talking about! Not going to get into a big debate here, like you are with other people. If you're new to the sport you should just sit back and pay attention to what other people are saying until you learn something. Either that or go out and buy a TOUR car or a VMRS car, then maybe you'll have half a clue of what it's all about to own a car. When you do, then maybe you'll know the difference between the Tour and the VMRS.

[bud]

My only comparison was how qualifying the way the VMRS does it shakes up the field and gives more opportunites for teams to get a chance to run up front. To assume that the Competetors on the VMRS drive sleds is an uneducated assumption. The 73 runs a P/T engine the 13 a Billy the Kid engine. Im pretty sure the 06, 5, 28, and the other front runners arent running cinder blocks. Did you see the #2 of Barry at the begining of the year? What a show piece. Hinckley and and the 5 car are pretty sweet to. Some of your statements are way off base. Steffy ran the 66 car which was in yesterdays tour race on the VMRS. Yes the VMRS has cost controls but they aren't even close to a second rate series. Heck you site low car counts but at the KONK they had more cars than the "tour" had at Louden........... Not sure if you even know but Bateman the founder of the series built Steffys motor for what I believe was his last national modified title! Like someone else said sit back and learn for a while.

[bud]

How could I forget Rowin Pennick (YES LIMM I FINALLY GOT IT RIGHT) or Eric Beers both run the WMT and the VMRS. Both series are highly competitive. opps what about Andy Suess.(might not have got that one right.....lol)

[Howie]

How could I forget Rowin Pennick (YES LIMM I FINALLY GOT IT RIGHT) or Eric Beers both run the WMT and the VMRS. Both series are highly competitive. opps what about Andy Suess.(might not have got that one right.....lol)

Awww Bud, thanks for tryin', but it's Rowan Pennink and Seuss. :wave: Keep practicing. :)

[Bob T. Racer]

The rulebooks explain the differences rather well, and that tells what can be expected as far as costs to run. The heavy hitters on cost are in there: tires, engine, etc. Yeah, compare the rules first, then decide what series to run. There are rules. Read the rules, follow the rules.

Don't just focus on cars that may be leaving, new cars arrive too. There are some pretty good recent additions, such as Rudolph and Bonsignore.

And let's also acknowledge that the MRS needs more cars to show up. Although the MRS has a very long roster, barely enough cars show up at each event. How many cars DNQ'd this year because of full fields? How many cars DNQ'd per event this year because of full fields? So before you make it look like the Tour needs help, look no further than the MRS. The MRS is already the low-cost series and it is having a hard time drawing cars. I'd be more worried about MRS car counts than NWMT car counts.

I also don't think cars are replaced as often on the MRS, there's probably some pretty old chassis on the MRS circuit. Is the old Stefanik 6x still running? Also, I doubt the MRS is populated with fresh built Hutter, Bruneau, Tony's, and Performance Technology power, or frequently refreshed.

The NWMT has had a low cost spec engine for a couple years, and nobody is running it. I think there was one car running it last year, not impressive. Do you understand that?

There are many things that can be done to reduce cost, such as I mentioned a couple pages earlier, and still have the same built car which is what you all want to see. That might get a few more cars to show up but I doubt it will get the ticket price to that of a MRS event, in case that's what you are expecting. If you want to run the NWMT but don't want to spend those kinda bucks, don't complain the NWMT is too expensive. There are plenty of things people want but don't spend the money on. It's not because it's too expensive.

How about when GM built a Cadillac on the Nova platform. How successful was that? It wasn't. It was still a Nova.

Look, if you want to see the names such as Silk, Santos, Szegedy, Beers, Bonsignore, Rudolph, Stefanik, Coby, Preece, etc., you have to go to the NWMT. The NWMT is not going to turn into another MRS. They are two completely different products and markets. If you want to see the high power cars, new cars, the fresh cars, the well maintained cars, the nicely painted cars, you have to go to the NWMT. And you have to realize you have to pay the commensurate ticket prices. If you don't want to pay the NWMT ticket prices, go to the MRS, SK, Sunoco, and other Weekly Series. But stop wasting your time thinking you are going to bring the NWMT product to the the MRS market at the MRS cost and price structure, or change the NWMT rules to the MRS rules.

There's nothing to debate. Most of you just don't get that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and nobody should want to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse.

You still haven't answered my question Acadia. Have you ever owned a Tour car or for that matter a VMRS car? If you haven't i don't want to waste my time explaining to someone who doesn't have a clue.

[bud]

LOL I cant believe it! I left out Doug Colby too..... TC Keith Rocco Did I PUT THEM TOO CLOSE TOGETHER?? LOL Jerry came out of retirement to run a VMRS show and WIN!....... Another cool thing that the VMRS does is it has its own announcer. Heck that could be something Chad could do instead of hiding in the trailer.....lol It is nice to have an announcer that knows the series and the drivers on a semi personal level. Ben doesn't go to all the tracks..... god I wish he did! YUP YOUR RIGHT VMRS......A SOWS EAR.....LOL........ JACK IF YOU NEED A PR GUY MESSAGE ME!

[bud]

Come to Lee and I'll buy you a beer and we can watch the race together. Im sure you'll be suprised! If you want send a message and I'll give you my cell # so we can meet up! It will be a fun day. We can even tour the pits and you can meet a few of the drivers. Only thing that comes close to the theme from shaft at stafford is hells bells playing when the VMRS cars come out to do battle! GOD I LOVE MODIFIEDS!

[uticamike]

LOL I cant believe it! I left out Doug Colby too..... TC Keith Rocco Did I PUT THEM TOO CLOSE TOGETHER?? LOL Jerry came out of retirement to run a VMRS show and WIN!....... Another cool thing that the VMRS does is it has its own announcer. Heck that could be something Chad could do instead of hiding in the trailer.....lol It is nice to have an announcer that knows the series and the drivers on a semi personal level. Ben doesn't go to all the tracks..... god I wish he did! YUP YOUR RIGHT VMRS......A SOWS EAR.....LOL........ JACK IF YOU NEED A PR GUY MESSAGE ME!

( I got it Howie) Bud..It's Coby not Colby. (great points though in your posts) Keep on giving Rcade (:)) the lesson he needs. :lol:

[Jaws]

Page 9 and we are now correcting spelling, please put this out of its misery! PLEASE.

[Howie]

Nine pages and it is still civil. I'm too proud about that to close it. Like most threads it no longer resembles the subject it was started for and no one that has posted will change their mind about anything they've posted. I am curious what we'll be talking about when/if it ever ends

[bud]

The Pennick thing has been atleast a 2 yr joke between limm and I . Figured id throw Colby in for good measure....lol

[MXCHAMP04]

My only comparison was how qualifying the way the VMRS does it shakes up the field and gives more opportunites for teams to get a chance to run up front. To assume that the Competetors on the VMRS drive sleds is an uneducated assumption. The 73 runs a P/T engine the 13 a Billy the Kid engine. Im pretty sure the 06, 5, 28, and the other front runners arent running cinder blocks. Did you see the #2 of Barry at the begining of the year? What a show piece. Hinckley and and the 5 car are pretty sweet to. Some of your statements are way off base. Steffy ran the 66 car which was in yesterdays tour race on the VMRS. Yes the VMRS has cost controls but they aren't even close to a second rate series. Heck you site low car counts but at the KONK they had more cars than the "tour" had at Louden........... Not sure if you even know but Bateman the founder of the series built Steffys motor for what I believe was his last national modified title! Like someone else said sit back and learn for a while.You're right Bud, there's big dollars in VMRS cars also. The 73 and 2 have P/T engines. The 28 and 66 have Tony's. The 5 has a Billy the Kid or Hutter depending on the track. The 06 is worked on by Bruneau. The top cars I assure you are running the best equipment possible.

[limodmaniac]

Come to Lee and I'll buy you a beer and we can watch the race together. Im sure you'll be suprised! If you want send a message and I'll give you my cell # so we can meet up! It will be a fun day. We can even tour the pits and you can meet a few of the drivers. Only thing that comes close to the theme from shaft at stafford is hells bells playing when the VMRS cars come out to do battle! GOD I LOVE MODIFIEDS!

NOTHING comes close to the Theme From Shaft!! lol

[limodmaniac]

After reading a lot of stuff about what Nascar can do it to make the mods stronger , one of the things that constantly pops up is to get rid of some of the multi day shows. Saves money, time = makes sense to me.

Also, one other thought - the point fund. I think they pay out the top 15 in owners points. To encourage more drivers to attend all shows , maybe they need to payout point money to all drivers who complete all events. So if 20 guys make all the shows, they all get point money at the end of the year.

[csg]

After reading a lot of stuff about what Nascar can do it to make the mods stronger , one of the things that constantly pops up is to get rid of some of the multi day shows. Saves money, time = makes sense to me.

Also, one other thought - the point fund. I think they pay out the top 15 in owners points. To encourage more drivers to attend all shows , maybe they need to payout point money to all drivers who complete all events. So if 20 guys make all the shows, they all get point money at the end of the year.

I believe nascar paid out top 20 until a few years ago. They cut it to 15 to save money. So I dont see them going back to the paying the top 20. Yes all the teams that make all the races should see monetary compensation in the form of a point fund.

I agree, the 2 day show has to go when it can be done in one day. I think that is the one thing that can easily be done by Nascar which wouldnt cost them money and would save teams money.

[Acadia]

http://blogs.courant.com/autoracing/2010/03/continued-economy-woes-force-n.html

[limodmaniac]

I just became ill - if the mods had a million dollar point fund, or if they took the two series and averaged it out to be fair and equal... but this is sickening.


this taken from Shawn's blog, posted above

Last year the Whelen Modified Tour points fund paid out $298,687 to the top-20 drivers in the division. This year the points fund in the series will pay $292,334 to the top-15 drivers in the standings at the end of the season.

Last year's K&N Pro Series East points fund totaled $1,186,750 paid out to the top-20 teams. This year the top-15 teams will split a point fund of $1,117,250.

[RGeeProductions]

Please note: that does not state what the 2011 point funds are. That blog was from March 9, 2010 concerning 2009 and 2010 point fund comparisons....
In other words, probably less in 2011....

[Acadia]

On average, that turned out to be $19,500 per team. The weighting was probably slanted towards the top finishers, so the teams towards the bottom of the top 15 got less than the $19,500. What do you think it cost to bring a team to the awards banquet for a couple days?

[Goldy]

Did you all just see that?

Somewhere along this mighty thread, Mr. Acadia became an "Expert"... well done sir!!!

Of course "Expert" is all very subjective.. "Expert" in what?.. I'm thinking Rules Compliance.

:)

[bud]

Lol. It's goodfella.

[Bob T. Racer]

Like i told Acadia 1 or 2 pages ago. Own a race car and you'll be able to understand how NASCAR could really care less about the people that race in the series!! I owned a Tour car for 8 years (yes Acadia, that's NASCAR) and i spent 3/4 of a million dollars only racing 8-!0 races a year. I had full tire and gas sponserships besides that. Teams today that run the full Tour(yes Acadia, that's NASCAR) have to spend, i'm only guessing here-$300,000.-$400,000. a year if you want to be up front. The guys that cheat like you say we never worried about because we just concentrated on getting faster and trying to beat them. When you own a car you can't worry about what anyone else is doing, you just try to get faster and hope the officials take care of the rest.

[NWMT PR]

Also, one other thought - the point fund. I think they pay out the top 15 in owners points. To encourage more drivers to attend all shows , maybe they need to payout point money to all drivers who complete all events. So if 20 guys make all the shows, they all get point money at the end of the year.

This year we had 14 drivers compete in all 16 races, last year there were 18 that ran all 14.

In the five years prior to reducing the point fund payout positions from 20 to 15, the average number of drivers that competed in all of the season's races was 14.4. That played a part in the decision to make a change. It should be noted that although the payout positions were reduced from 20 to 15, the per-car payout increased, so those 14.4 cars that are showing up for every race are taking home more than they were previously.

[Jaws]

This year we had 14 drivers compete in all 16 races, last year there were 18 that ran all 14.

In the five years prior to reducing the point fund payout positions from 20 to 15, the average number of drivers that competed in all of the season's races was 14.4. That played a part in the decision to make a change. It should be noted that although the payout positions were reduced from 20 to 15, the per-car payout increased, so those 14.4 cars that are showing up for every race are taking home more than they were previously.

.4 lol, I think Jims point is that you pay the K & N series way more and that if you paid the mods that much the fields would be huge!

[MJProcko]

.4 lol, I think Jims point is that you pay the K & N series way more and that if you paid the mods that much the fields would be huge!

Just goes to show you what Nascar and sponsorship can do. A million dollar point fund and TV deal for teenagers who no one has ever heard unless they are the son of Bill Elliott playing to empty grandstands or a point fund that's a quarter of that with no TV and a long storied tradition, longer than the cup series itself with a mix of veteran and young drivers playing to a much bigger crowd..... what's wrong with this picture?

[limodmaniac]

Keep in mind the million dollar point fund for the KandN covers a whopping 12 races this year. So to make it even worse, they run four less races and have a 700,000 extra payout in point fund money.

This is just wrong!

[JWfor8x]

Just goes to show you what Nascar and sponsorship can do. A million dollar point fund and TV deal for teenagers who no one has ever heard unless they are the son of Bill Elliott playing to empty grandstands or a point fund that's a quarter of that with no TV and a long storied tradition, longer than the cup series itself with a mix of veteran and young drivers playing to a much bigger crowd..... what's wrong with this picture?

Umm...everything?

[bud]

Hmmmm Chad put lil Little in the K&N series...... nothing to do w a conflict of intrest he'll make more finishing 25th in points than the Mod tour Champ! BTW I brought someone to the races at Lee (yes I know Not WMT) to see the Mods as I am always talking about them at work. Anyway they said "this is so much better than the racing Gorden does." Said it was quick exciting and they race every lap! Maybe the Mods shoulda been the car of tomorrow! Phil can you do us up a picture of a Mod with a wing and a spliter.....

[csg]

The K and N series probably logs more miles between races, they go to Iowa and other remote places for there races. I think they have tv on speed or VS. I turn them on anytime I need to take a nap. KN is considered a developmental series for the big 3 has the taxi cab style car, and has cup team developmental drivers. The mods dont have the multi million dollar teams, they are the ones that need the money. It stinks kn gets more money from Nascar for less races.

[MXCHAMP04]

Just goes to show you what Nascar and sponsorship can do. A million dollar point fund and TV deal for teenagers who no one has ever heard unless they are the son of Bill Elliott playing to empty grandstands or a point fund that's a quarter of that with no TV and a long storied tradition, longer than the cup series itself with a mix of veteran and young drivers playing to a much bigger crowd..... what's wrong with this picture?Can you explain this WMT guy? I'm waiting to hear this one. Just face it. Nascar doesn't give a rats ass about the mods. I was at the last race at thompson, and the crowd was huge. The only ones making money here are the track owners, that was obvious, and Nascar. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves because what you're really doing is exploiting peoples love for racing. It's a shame that nascar even exists, because in the hunt for the mighty dollar the actual racing has been put aside. The car owners should just say screw it and not show up, but that unfortunately won't happen, so Nascar will continue to exploit them.

[Armadasx]

The K and N series probably logs more miles between races, they go to Iowa and other remote places for there races. I think they have tv on speed or VS. I turn them on anytime I need to take a nap. KN is considered a developmental series for the big 3 has the taxi cab style car, and has cup team developmental drivers. The mods dont have the multi million dollar teams, they are the ones that need the money. It stinks kn gets more money from Nascar for less races.



The only reason the K&n series goes that far is cause none of the tracks around here want them.No one cares to watch a bunch off guys that are racing a local northeast based division and almost none of the drivers are even from the area anymore.

[bud]

Only good k&n race was fall final in 2008. Teddy had it won till Luis Dias or whatever his name was waited on Ted..... Ted's comment after. laughed and said live by the sword die by the sword I never touched him though.... Hey Arc you think Ted Marsh was cheating that day?

[BOWATCHER]

Get rid of Chad, bring in someone who can relate to this division. Hiding in a trailer or booth all day pointing at his agenda list with his string of puppets act is getting OLD. Good call Bud, this coming year if he stays around will be another wasted year chasing his K [kid] and N [nephew] kid around.:help:

[MOD11RACER]

This year we had 14 drivers compete in all 16 races, last year there were 18 that ran all 14.

In the five years prior to reducing the point fund payout positions from 20 to 15, the average number of drivers that competed in all of the season's races was 14.4. That played a part in the decision to make a change. It should be noted that although the payout positions were reduced from 20 to 15, the per-car payout increased, so those 14.4 cars that are showing up for every race are taking home more than they were previously.

NWMT PR: Keep up the good work on the info.

In 2011 the WMT had 15 car owners attempt to qualify for the 14 races.

[MOD11RACER]

This year we had 14 drivers compete in all 16 races, last year there were 18 that ran all 14.

In the five years prior to reducing the point fund payout positions from 20 to 15, the average number of drivers that competed in all of the season's races was 14.4. That played a part in the decision to make a change. It should be noted that although the payout positions were reduced from 20 to 15, the per-car payout increased, so those 14.4 cars that are showing up for every race are taking home more than they were previously.

NWMT PR: Keep up the good work keeping us informed.

The WMT was always self reliant with great car counts and NASCAR never had to do anything to help. Now it's totally dependent on NASCAR's help to not only save the WMT, but Modifieds in general. The Modifieds can't live on $1,500 to $2,000 to win and $5,000 to win a Championship. That kind of Tour will not save our beloved Modifieds. A Million dollar point should be the first step to save it and you wouldn't have to increase the purse the tracks have to pay, because of the big payoff at the end of the year.

In 2011 the WMT had 15 car owners attempt to qualify in the 16 events. The 10, 16 and the 88 made 15 attempts. The 36 made 14 attempts. If the point fund was 1 Million dollars I'm sure those 4 teams would have completed in 16 events. Which would have brought the total to 19 and with a bigger payout in the point fund that total (19) would also increase. The 18 in 2010 versus 15 in 2012 is a direct cause of the point fund being decreased from 20 to 15 paid positions. 3 teams didn't receive any point fund money for their efforts in 2010. That hurts anyway you look at it.

The K&N East Series had 19 car owners attempt to qualify in all 12 events and 3 car owners attempt to qualify in 11 events.

As I see it 22 for the K&N East Series versus 19 for the WMT. That doesn't add up to a difference of $800,000 in point fund money any way you cut it.

The drivers on the WMT are much more talented than the drivers on the K&N East Series. I don't think NASCAR cares about that.

No one cares about the K&N East Series except NASCAR and the little rich kids that pay for the rides. The K&N could never stand on it's own.

[NWMT PR]

I'm just going to take a quick moment to weigh in on a couple topics I browsed here:

1. I see suggestions to lower the purse so that more tracks can afford to bring the Tour in, yet I also see many others suggesting the purse be raised to attract more teams. How do you rectify those two positions?

2. While the Modifieds and East may have been more comparable 10-15-20 years ago because they were primarily based in the same region, there really aren't many comparisions these days. With the exception of the East and West being very closely aligned, for the most part all six touring divisions are different.

3. I don't expect that anyone on here would know this, and judging by the predisposition of many, I also don't expect to change your minds ... but Chad Little is quite passionate about the Tour. He does understand that the Tour is unique, he has a deep appreciation for the history of the Tour, and if you had the opportunity to be in meetings with him you would know that many of your concerns are also his concerns. Drivers, car owners and crew chiefs might not always agree with the rules Chad has instituted or enforced, and that is natural, but I'd challenge that few - if any - would say that he doesn't care about the Tour.


Keep up the good dialog on this thread.


thanks,
Jason

[BigMac]

In reference to #1, I think people are calling for Nascar to lower the Nascar race fee they charge the tracks to host a race vice lowering the actual purse that goes to the drivers.

[limodmaniac]

And to #2 - just how is it that Nascar has allowed the K and N series togrow and race for such a large point fund, and yet, the modifieds , which have been around longer, and seem to play to a larger audience, play for 1/4 of the point fund. The tracks in the northeast basically kicked out the K and N series because it wasn't drawing a crowd. Nascar moves the series to tracks down south, and race them at the same tracks as the Southern Modified Tour and yet, pays the modifieds peanuts. Kand N at Bowman Gray gets a much bigger purse than the modifieds. Why? If the modified tour is unique with such a rich history, why is it being short changed?

[bud]

Jason..... you are a smart guy Do you really think going to Canada for the purse you paid out is reasonable? Can I ask where the K&N point fund comes from. It's obviously not from ticket sales. Could you give use a break down on where their point fund comes from? Then maybe how the WMT points fund break down too? Is there any effort to find additional sponsorship or are we "NASCAR" happy with what we have? There is always room for more money. Half way sponsors. Not relying on the tracks for race sponsors. Maybe sign the tire supplier to give a set of tires to let's say 15th qualifier. There are tons of things that can be done. Look at what JIM did at Riverhead. People that are full-time pr guys can't do as well for the series as some fan from Long Island. You guys should be ashamed period! Maybe NASCAR should hire a MANIAC to run the series. Obviously he has some Passion where it seems the guys running the tour are just collecting a check. I challenge you the tour officials to step up and prove me wrong.

[Mod Squad]

I'm just going to take a quick moment to weigh in on a couple topics I browsed here:

1. I see suggestions to lower the purse so that more tracks can afford to bring the Tour in, yet I also see many others suggesting the purse be raised to attract more teams. How do you rectify those two positions?

2. While the Modifieds and East may have been more comparable 10-15-20 years ago because they were primarily based in the same region, there really aren't many comparisions these days. With the exception of the East and West being very closely aligned, for the most part all six touring divisions are different.

3. I don't expect that anyone on here would know this, and judging by the predisposition of many, I also don't expect to change your minds ... but Chad Little is quite passionate about the Tour. He does understand that the Tour is unique, he has a deep appreciation for the history of the Tour, and if you had the opportunity to be in meetings with him you would know that many of your concerns are also his concerns. Drivers, car owners and crew chiefs might not always agree with the rules Chad has instituted or enforced, and that is natural, but I'd challenge that few - if any - would say that he doesn't care about the Tour.


Keep up the good dialog on this thread.


thanks,
Jason

Jason, thanks for at least listening to dedicated fans and hearing opinons. As stated by many over the years, increasing the purses and reducing the multiple day shows you would be making a good start to show the teams you want to help. Thanks again for listening to inputs. Oh and one more thing, whoever you have to talk to, PLEASE get rid of the phrase "Developmental Series". Modifieds are not go-karts. I think the majority of drivers on this tour are well beyond development level. Leave that for the rich brats on the K&N Tour.

[Jaws]

Jason..... you are a smart guy Do you really think going to Canada for the purse you paid out is reasonable? Can I ask where the K&N point fund comes from. It's obviously not from ticket sales. Could you give use a break down on where their point fund comes from? Then maybe how the WMT points fund break down too? Is there any effort to find additional sponsorship or are we "NASCAR" happy with what we have? There is always room for more money. Half way sponsors. Not relying on the tracks for race sponsors. Maybe sign the tire supplier to give a set of tires to let's say 15th qualifier. There are tons of things that can be done. Look at what JIM did at Riverhead. People that are full-time pr guys can't do as well for the series as some fan from Long Island. You guys should be ashamed period! Maybe NASCAR should hire a MANIAC to run the series. Obviously he has some Passion where it seems the guys running the tour are just collecting a check. I challenge you the tour officials to step up and prove me wrong.

I say make Jim the full time promotor of the series!

[Bob T. Racer]

I'm just going to take a quick moment to weigh in on a couple topics I browsed here:

1. I see suggestions to lower the purse so that more tracks can afford to bring the Tour in, yet I also see many others suggesting the purse be raised to attract more teams. How do you rectify those two positions?

2. While the Modifieds and East may have been more comparable 10-15-20 years ago because they were primarily based in the same region, there really aren't many comparisions these days. With the exception of the East and West being very closely aligned, for the most part all six touring divisions are different.

3. I don't expect that anyone on here would know this, and judging by the predisposition of many, I also don't expect to change your minds ... but Chad Little is quite passionate about the Tour. He does understand that the Tour is unique, he has a deep appreciation for the history of the Tour, and if you had the opportunity to be in meetings with him you would know that many of your concerns are also his concerns. Drivers, car owners and crew chiefs might not always agree with the rules Chad has instituted or enforced, and that is natural, but I'd challenge that few - if any - would say that he doesn't care about the Tour.

Keep up the good dialog on this thread.


thanks,
Jason

What part doesn't anyone understand. Jason comes on here with his PR nonsense (that the big boys probably tell him to say) to keep the overcharged money paying fans coming back, while NASCAR does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the series. 17-18 years ago Riverhead was the third highest paying show on the Tour and now if the Maniac didn't do something about it, it would be a bigger joke than it already is. We appreciate everything Jim does, but it just goes to show how little effort NASCAR puts into it. They figure they have Whelen and they don't need anymore sponsors i guess.

[SUfan]

Well said Mod Squad. One thing I think NASCAR could do that might not cost anything in the long run is to get the WMT on TV more. The ratings from 2010 certainly are proof of that, which should lead to advertising dollars to pay for it. The Lucas Oil Dirt Late Models were on SPEED all afternoon today, with race reruns. Why can't the Modifieds be on there today? Isn't NASCAR a part owner of SPEED?

[Gil]

It seems that Speed TV is more interesting on the dumb reality shows these days!

:(

[MJProcko]

Well said Mod Squad. One thing I think NASCAR could do that might not cost anything in the long run is to get the WMT on TV more. The ratings from 2010 certainly are proof of that, which should lead to advertising dollars to pay for it. The Lucas Oil Dirt Late Models were on SPEED all afternoon today, with race reruns. Why can't the Modifieds be on there today? Isn't NASCAR a part owner of SPEED?

To get the mods on TV to similar to what the Lucas Oil cars do you need a sponsor similar to Lucas Oil. If a sponsor comes along willing to put that much money up then it will be directed somewhere up the food chain and will become the official whatever of Nascar or occupy the lower left quarter of Jeff Gordon's car.

This is not a knock on Whelen by any means, they have been a strong supporter of the modifieds but more of their resources are directed to the All American Series than the Modified Tour. What is needed sponsor who is going to demand that they get what they are paying for from Nascar.

[NWMT PR]

LIModManiac,
All NASCAR series are allowed to grow. Certainly no one series is being held back from potential growth. At one point, the Modifieds and Grand National (now Cup), were essentially the same. Once upon a time Harvard vs. Yale was bigger than Alabama vs. LSU. Things change over time for various reasons.

I'm not trying to dodge the question here, but I think you can understand that I can't actually share the economics of series versus another.


Bud,
You shotgun blasted so many topics and opinions, I’m not sure where to start.

As to the Delaware subject you bring up, here is a note for perspective: 2010 Martinsville paid $7K to win, $1K to start. Martinsville is a 640 mile drive from Hartford, CT (general starting point, considering location of most teams). / 2011 Delaware paid $7K to win, $1K to start. Delaware is a 550 mile drive from Hartford. Delaware was a shorter race and used less tires. Taking into account $100 for a passport for team members who did not already have one, what else am I missing?

“There is always room for more money.” … I can’t argue with that, but I think most economists would agree, it’s not as easy to attain as it once was.

“Not relying on the tracks for race sponsors.” … NASCAR has steered potential sponsors to race entitlement in the past – multiple instances come to mind this year from the two series I work with – but the tracks are still independently run.

“Maybe sign the tire supplier to give a set of tires to let's say 15th qualifier” … This already happens, Hoosier supplies two tires to each of the 20 highest in car owner points every race.

“People that are full-time pr guys can't do as well for the series as some fan from Long Island.” … Jim does a great job with the annual Riverhead race, and by supporting the Tour and the tracks by hitting the road for all of the races. … I’m not sure how you think it falls under my jurisdiction or ability to be a fundraiser.


Snafu,
Thanks for following along on Twitter, and the feedback you provide both here and there. And also, with this being Veteran’s Day week, it also goes without saying that we thank you for your service as well.

The multiple-day shows are being looked at. We have some challenges there, but the topic is definitely being explored.

You’re point on the general term “development series” is noted, and one that we have looked at in recent years. Could you refer to the K&N Pro Series East in general terms as a development series? Yes. Is the Whelen Modified Tour a development series? Some drivers might be using it as a proving ground, but I would acknowledge that the term might not apply to the series as a whole.


Bob T.,
I do not take direction from anybody about what to post here. It has been said before, but I come on here to provide knowledge when I can, and when the subjects are in bounds.

There is a constant effort to retain and attain sponsors.

---

One other thing I always read here, but haven’t addressed before … do you really think that we don’t care about the Modified Tour? Don’t forget, NASCAR is a business, and if we didn’t want to be in the Modified business, then we wouldn’t be. Look at the list of series that used to care the NASCAR name that no longer exist. Would we have added the Southern Modified Tour six years ago if we didn’t care about Modified racing? To assume that we’re not trying to make the Modified Tour better is to assume that we’re ok with operating some type of broken or dead business model. That’s just not the case.

[bud]

Ok ill eat crow on the tire thing..... I notice the avoidance of telling us where all the k&n money comes from. I like how the mileage thing was one way.....like they don't need to drive home....lol. Want to be our hero? Tell us what we need to do to get a comparable pint fund. The lack of fans watching is very apparent.

[Acadia]

NWMT PR, thanks for your participation here.

Please consider this. Times have changed. Newspaper circulation is down. The newspaper used to be the way many learned of racing events. Not many actually get the hardcopy paper delivered anymore. How will NASCAR get the word out about these local events? Okay, NASCAR doesn't do this, the local track does, but you can see the challenge the local promoters have. NASCAR needs to promote its products, not leave it or depend on each track to do it. The product will have a much better and uniform presentation if promoted by NASCAR instead of all these different tracks.

Is it possible that when someone visits the main NASCAR site, the visitor IP address is checked for location and then they are presented with a non-obnoxious promo for the local tracks? The NASCAR Home Tracks is sort of a good attempt, needs to be better and given much more exposure. If you visit the main NASCAR page, Home Tracks shows up towards the bottom and in a way that does not entice interest. People watch Cup races on TV, but would like to see live racing. Since it is not feasible for most of the general population to attend Cup events, local tracks can take advantage of that interest in attending a live race. But how?

Well, if on the main NASCAR website, which by the way is way too busy and cluttered, there was something up top, near Cup news and standings that would show on the screen when the page is first loaded, that would inform the viewer of local racing, that would be a huge help. Having the Home Tracks link near the bottom as it is doesn't help expose local tracks.

NASCAR needs to do a better job in presenting its brand and promoting itself, and rely less on the tracks to do the presentation and promoting.

I find it very disappointing to see K&N, Nationwide and Camping World series races that appear to be "Made For TV" since there's hardly anybody in the stands, and the money, exposure and coverage these series get. Then we have the Modifieds that are awesome and it appears NASCAR wants to keep them out of sight. The K&N, Nationwide and Camping World series can not be flourishing on ticket sales.

[NWMT PR]

Ok ill eat crow on the tire thing..... I notice the avoidance of telling us where all the k&n money comes from. I like how the mileage thing was one way.....like they don't need to drive home....lol. Want to be our hero? Tell us what we need to do to get a comparable pint fund. The lack of fans watching is very apparent.

OK, Bud, so I'll provide the round-trip mileage. It's 1,100 to and from Delaware and 1,280 to and from Martinsville. I wasn't trying to make it sound like it was a short drive, I was just trying to provide some perspective. Nobody bemoans going to Martinsville, Bristol, the North-South Shootout or New Smyrna ... all of which are longer drives than Delaware ... that was the point.

The point fund question ... I hope all would realize that I can't address every topic here. While it's not necessarily apples to oranges, I doubt the Red Sox would give you a breakdown on how they make payroll.

[mwf44]

A first-timer or an untrained looking for info about anything other than Cup/Busch/Truck on nascar.com has "NO SHOT". How would he or she know to look for "home track" & even if this person is lucky enough to find "home track", how would they even know what it means. Wake-up !! Trying to navigate that site for anything other than Cup/Busch/Truck is a joke !! I have such a hard time trying to explain to some one how to get to the Whelen Mod Tour area. Will say this though; that once there, Nascar PR does a very good job. But thats enough credit for today !!

[Acadia]

Think about this... somebody is watching a Cup race and they think, "Hey, there's no Cup events near home, what else is there? I'll go look on the NASCAR website."

And what do they find? Nothing that will get them to a local track. The internet is the source for information like that and the NASCAR site is deplorable. NASCAR needs to help itself here. NASCAR, go to www.apple.com and use that as an example of how to design a website. Clear, concise and packed with information. NASCAR tries to get it all on one page and loses the message. Get Apple to design your website!

A year or so ago, NASCAR did have the Home Track ads on TV, which were fantastic!!!!! It had Cup drivers talking about how they grew up on the local tracks. That was brilliant, but it is gone. NASCAR needs to start airing those ads about a month before racing season starts, and throughout the season.

[Rentawrench]

Is NOT run by NASCAR, But by Turner( Ted Turner TNT,TBS.) Sports They are Only interested
in The MAJOR Leauge racing.

Can you go onto Major Leauge Baseballs Home site an Learn about the Minor leauge game in Ct?

LiMod Manic Why should Riverhead or ANY other track pay more/try harder, the teams will Race an the Fans who LOVE the sport like you do will take up the slack.

I an the team I worked with at the time Had that Special LIMod Manic sponsorship an was Very Greatful,Got us to the front an got us a Great Driver. LiMM has taken drivers an giving them that lil extra ,an most have Great rides Now. So Jim a BIG Thank You for All you do.

MWF44 Real racer"s Run MORE than Just the Tour --Right ? lol

[worm]

16-20 in points is needed back in the money ,period

[limodmaniac]

I do not think you will find any one more passionate about their sport than modified car owners, drivers, crew and fans.

Any thing I put on here is from a fan's point of view.

1. Why are people upset about Canada? Yes, Martinsville and Bristol are about the same distance for about the same purse, but at least those tracks have a history to them. What if the Cup cars stopped racing at Michigan and instead went to Mexico, that probably wouldn't go over too big either. And both of the southern tracks are basically combo races, so the northern guys who can't afford the big expense to travel south aren't missed as much as when they don't show up to Canada. Of course, there's the added expense of passport and the legality of whether you can even get into Canada. And as for Bristol, you would think the payout would be at least what the payout is for Loudon. Again, if the point fund was bigger or paid out more drivers, maybe more would go.

2. Every series has the right to grow. Sure they do, but it seems like the modifieds haven't been given much chance to grow. The K and N series was almost dead before somebody did something to throw in the extra money. They get Richmond, the mods get Canada. Let's trade them off year to year, at least!

3. Television - I'm going to the races so I hardly care about tv. But, when I look at TV and the junk that's on it, I can't believe that the modifieds can't get on, but other racing series can. Figure a way to get the mods the air time.

[Acadia]

3. Television - I'm going to the races so I hardly care about tv. But, when I look at TV and the junk that's on it, I can't believe that the modifieds can't get on, but other racing series can. Figure a way to get the mods the air time.


Some TV time would be nice and helpful.

[bud]

So basically Jason is saying it is what it is. Yes bristol and martinsville may be about the same distance but the purses are small compared to the other series.
Jasson...... you ever think that we went to martinsville and bristol thinking maybe just maybe it would lead to something more? Kinda like the old-fashioned work ethic. With hard work comes recognition and reward..... Don't want you to give up any big NASCAR secrets but where is most of the k&n money
coming from? Sponsorship.... tracks....... or NASCAR as a tax break? What's the big secret?

[Magicshoes12]

So basically Jason is saying it is what it is. Yes bristol and martinsville may be about the same distance but the purses are small compared to the other series.
Jasson...... you ever think that we went to martinsville and bristol thinking maybe just maybe it would lead to something more? Kinda like the old-fashioned work ethic. With hard work comes recognition and reward..... Don't want you to give up any big NASCAR secrets but where is most of the k&n money
coming from? Sponsorship.... tracks....... or NASCAR as a tax break? What's the big secret?

Dude you are an a$$! Jason doesn't hide any NASCAR secrets, and I have had converstaions with him about a few topics in person and he feels the same way we do about a lot of stuff but just like you, he doesn't have the pull to get what everyone wants, he doesn't even have to come on here and inform anyone about anything, just be happy that he does and informs you the best he can!....if you think you can make a difference with all of it here is a website for you

http://nascar.teamworkonline.com/teamwork/jobs/default.cfm

I know I'm younger than most of you by a lot, probably most of you could be my grandfather. What you have to understand this isn't the old days and it probably will never go back to what it use to be, money is the same anymore, everything is 10x as expensive, so stop living the past and compairing the series of now to the modified 30 years ago!

As far as points fund money i'm sure K&N puts in a crap load of money, seeing they only sponsor two tours and not the weekly racing, and plus they are going to pump more money into that series because they are simply grooming future cup/nationwide/truck series drivers and they want them just in fendered cars now! You'll be lucky to see a modified driver make it to cup in the next 10 years, they just don't have the money to get there like the rich little kids that just drive fendered cars!

[RGeeProductions]

Jason doesn't hide any NASCAR secrets, and I have had converstaions with him about a few topics in person and he feels the same way we do about a lot of stuff but just like you, he doesn't have the pull to get what everyone wants, he doesn't even have to come on here and inform anyone about anything, just be happy that he does and informs you the best he can!

You hit that dead on the head...

[bud]

Just asking where the money comes from. Guess thst does make me an ass.....lol.
Funny thing is I was at a friends house last night and we were watching an old Busch race.
Lajoie, Bodine, Park, Magic Shoes, Fuller were all racing.....yeah the good old days. The discussion
of the mods of today came up. All those drivers from the tour and all running up front. Then we
compared it to todays Nation"wise" series. Boy the mod tour is actually lucky not to have changed that much!
Talk about a series on a downward spiral. Funny I noticed a bad trend when the truck series was at louden
too. You notice all the unsponsored trucks? Then NASCAR doesn't seem to be able to sell out a cup race anymore.....
and thats with $39 tickets.......hmmmm. The whole weight of the NASCAR world doesn't rest on Jasons shoulders.
He obviously has a boss that directs his work load. Seems thier model isn't working that well anymore. Cautions used
to manipulate the out come of races, inconsistant rules enforcement all these things have brought NASCAR down the road
that makes it no where as apppealing to the average fan. Heck a guy buys a motor from awesome Bills brother Ernie and gets
pretty much tossed out of NASCAR for life for a tolerance so small its a joke. The way they treated Masse at Thompson they treat other people
at the drop of a hat. The sex scandel from a couple yrs ago...... NASCAR wasnt at fault but the officials were let go.....lol
You can blame it on the economy but try and buy a pats ticket. How many Sox games sold out this yr?
Shoes you can tell me most of the money comes from K&N but till Jason says that I don't have an official answer. If it does come fron K&N why not give them the credit they are do......Why skirt the issue lol.
One final thing...... The only difference between a brown noser (magic shoes) and a $hit head (Bud) is how hard your willing to push.....lol
I know we all love the mods and this is a passionate topic. I'm sure Jason is a great guy and when he gets heat from anyone of us it is not directed at him personally but he is our rep to NASCAR and our feedback good or bad needs to be heard. :applause::-B:applause:

[bud]

So Jason & shoes and anyone else that would love to hear something interesting. These are candid comments from guys that run the wmt. Go to Gary Danko's speedway line live scroll down to June 6 th show and listen to the first segment of the show. Listen to the comments by people from your tour and listen to how frustrated these guys are........ Please listen. No need to comment just listen and realize this is on a radio show dedicated to the cars we love!