PDA

View Full Version : Tour Race and Tour officials decision.



Lugnuts
09-16-2012, 01:19 AM
First let me say Congratulations to Ryan Preece, J Bongs and Todd Szegedy on there respective finishes.

As far as the Nascar Tour Officials decision to take away Jimmy Blewetts win was, as Todd Szegedy said, a bad decision. It seems as if this was the same issue that took the win away from Rowan Pennick in Thompson. I understand rules are rules but, I think Nascar needs to take a good look at the rule and make a change. I attended both of these races and its seems as if the leader in both cases did not get a good restart and spun there tires and the second place car got a better restart and got to the start/finish line first. As was mentioned earlier in the year how does a racer be given the green flag and be able to hold off on getting going until he/she knows the leader is in font of them and gets to the start line first when everyone behind them is also looking to get going. Maybe they should not have a restart line in the turn and be given the green when they get to the line! To me that would be pretty stupid, my opinion is, change the rule to read that the leader must pass the restart line first.

Not that I am a Jimmy Blewett fan but I think he got screwed just line Rowan did. They got punished for getting a better restart than the leaders, the leaders were trying so hard to protect there spot that they spun there tires, not fair in my book. Ryan drove a good race but Jimmy drove his a$$ off and had the better car on the green / white / checker restart. JMO

TMAC
09-16-2012, 01:43 AM
Have say to say great crowd tonight. Sat in turn four. Coming to the green jimmy was were he needed to be .
Stayin tight to the leader on outside. Absolutely Preece
Spun them tires.. For a race the was
Exciting (have to say. TC
Was wheeling that thing). Really outcome was
Wrong...showtime.. You ran one hell of a race. And for all who wasnt there. Ryan was up
Front most of the race.shout to 58 as
Well

Rob29
09-16-2012, 02:01 AM
I knew the call would be made the second I saw him beat Preece to the line. Maybe it's a bad rule, but at least they're consistent in calling it. They've called it across the board in all divisions from what I've seen. From the Daytona 500 to Indianapolis, to Riverhead, you beat the leader to the line, regardless of whether they spun the tires or not, you're getting a penalty.

Thought the race itself was pretty good. Was a shame to see the 51 spin the tires when he restarted second. Had that caution not come out I think he would have passed Preece in the next 3 laps.

What a run by TC to get back up to 5th. Watching him tonight was really exciting. Took a pretty hard hit in the Legends race, but was obviously okay.

Szegedy is a wheel-man. That car was crazy loose in the final 15 laps and he somehow didn't spin it.

Blewett's car was a rocket. Shame that he lost under those circumstances, but a rule is a rule.

Loved the race, loved the size of the crowd as well. Sat in the middle of 1 and 2 and had a great time just as I thought I would. Modifieds on a bull ring are always a lot of fun.

Congrats to Preece on the win. Heard his grandfather had a heart-attack either yesterday or today, so this win is pretty big for him one would think.

Leadfoot
09-16-2012, 10:30 AM
seems pretty simple to me. (if the show is to be about the racers that is)
leader gets to hit the gas first. Must be within a box area on the track. Must be within a defined speed range.
then once he hits the gas, race is actually a race. May the best car and driver win.
but shucks, the man in the tower, would have less power.

hasbeen
09-16-2012, 11:47 AM
Would like to add that, thats what modified racing is!! I thought last nite was one of the better races I have seen in a few years....Some really good clean racing by quite a few drivers...Preece and Goodale racin n dicin back an forth clean hard racin.. No dogs in this fight but gotta tip my hat to Jimmy Blewett..Drove a smart race only to get questionable call in the end...Got to b a better way to rule these restarts...What I saw sure wasnt blantant on Jimmys part....shame to see him lose it on judgement call
Still one of the best mod races in a lllong time at the head

BigMac
09-16-2012, 12:05 PM
seems pretty simple to me. (if the show is to be about the racers that is)
leader gets to hit the gas first. Must be within a box area on the track. Must be within a defined speed range.
then once he hits the gas, race is actually a race. May the best car and driver win.
but shucks, the man in the tower, would have less power.

I agree. If I was the leader I'd spin them on purpose and wait for NASCAR to hand me the trophy. The rule gives the leader such an advantage that its really not worth having a Green,White,Checker finish anymore. You have a serious problem when the tower is deciding races.

JWfor8x
09-16-2012, 01:45 PM
First let me say Congratulations to Ryan Preece, J Bongs and Todd Szegedy on there respective finishes.

As far as the Nascar Tour Officials decision to take away Jimmy Blewetts win was, as Todd Szegedy said, a bad decision. It seems as if this was the same issue that took the win away from Rowan Pennick in Thompson. I understand rules are rules but, I think Nascar needs to take a good look at the rule and make a change. I attended both of these races and its seems as if the leader in both cases did not get a good restart and spun there tires and the second place car got a better restart and got to the start/finish line first. As was mentioned earlier in the year how does a racer be given the green flag and be able to hold off on getting going until he/she knows the leader is in font of them and gets to the start line first when everyone behind them is also looking to get going. Maybe they should not have a restart line in the turn and be given the green when they get to the line! To me that would be pretty stupid, my opinion is, change the rule to read that the leader must pass the restart line first.

Not that I am a Jimmy Blewett fan but I think he got screwed just line Rowan did. They got punished for getting a better restart than the leaders, the leaders were trying so hard to protect there spot that they spun there tires, not fair in my book. Ryan drove a good race but Jimmy drove his a$$ off and had the better car on the green / white / checker restart. JMO

First off, until the green white checker, I thought it was a great modified race. I agree that NASCAR needs to both look at and change the rule saying that you can't pass the leader until the start/finish line, but I don't think they will. They seem to want the same rules from the cup on down throughout their touring series. That's why there is the wave around rule too. Unless they change it for the cup series, I don't think they will change it for the WMT. I hope that I am wrong. To be honest, I didn't see whether Preece got a good start or not. It doesn't matter though with that rule. If they both got great starts, but the transponders said that Blewett lead the lap, he would still have been scored as the last car on the lead lap and that doesn't seem fair to me. There were only 23 cars last night and that was disappointing. Maybe it helped with the lack of yellows though I don't know. There was more green flag racing then I have seen there in years and it wasn't just freight train racing.

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 02:29 PM
The rule is clear. Leader leads the race. Fast start. Slow start. Spin tires. He leads period.
The green flag starts the restart but scoring starts at the line.
Do I like the call. No. Did they make the correct call. Yes.
The drivers know the rule AND the penalty is severe, purposely so it's not done, placed last on the lead lap. Jimmy should have let off knowing this rule. I talked with Johnny Bush and a tour official at length after the race and Johnny agrees with a clear black and white rule. Only exception here is if the 3rd place starter spins the leader before the line. Then it's a per situation call.
Why should rules differ between touring or upper level divisions? Sorry, consistency makes it black and white with clarity. Different rules cause confusion among divisions.

limodmaniac
09-16-2012, 02:52 PM
Like many others, I think it is a stupid rule. People are left in the stands wondering what just happened. I had a lot of people there last night who aren't regulars. They didn't really understand it. I knew right away what was going to happen, and I knew that Ryan was going to collect the big money after the race. Being a big Ryan supporter, I STILL think the rule is a stupid rule and Jimmy Blewett was robbed. It didn't spoil the night for me. A great crowd, great racing - We really didn't need those cars that stayed home. Loved seeing Eric Goodale up front like that, passing Ryan for the lead at one point. Congrats to Ryan and the over $11,000 victory.

JWfor8x
09-16-2012, 03:03 PM
The rule is clear. Leader leads the race. Fast start. Slow start. Spin tires. He leads period.
The green flag starts the restart but scoring starts at the line.
Do I like the call. No. Did they make the correct call. Yes.
The drivers know the rule AND the penalty is severe, purposely so it's not done, placed last on the lead lap. Jimmy should have let off knowing this rule. I talked with Johnny Bush and a tour official at length after the race and Johnny agrees with a clear black and white rule. Only exception here is if the 3rd place starter spins the leader before the line. Then it's a per situation call.
Why should rules differ between touring or upper level divisions? Sorry, consistency makes it black and white with clarity. Different rules cause confusion among divisions.

Yes, Richie, it is a clear rule and all of the competitors know the rule and it should be enforced. That to me is obvious and I don't have a problem with it . Here is why rules should differ, at least sometimes, between touring series. The cars and the tracks are different.A 1/4 mile track like Riverhead is not the same as a 2 mile track like Michigan, a mile track like Dover or a superspeedway like Talladega. A restart at Michigan is different than one at Riverhead. I think it is a bad rule, at least on a bull ring, and needs to be changed. I also don't think that a 200 lap race at Riverhead is the same as a 500 mile race anywhere, so why should those races have the exact same rules either? If you think they should, okay, that's fine too.
One other thing that I, from a fans perspective, really did like and I have to credit the Cromarty's, NASCAR and the competitors for. That's simply this. The race was originally scheduled for 175 laps with a 25 lap qualifiers race. Since the 25 lap race was not needed, they extended the race to a 200 lap event and I, as a fan, thank them for that.

Sicklajoie
09-16-2012, 05:41 PM
If they're going to continue to have this stupid rule, I don't understand why they should even have double file restarts.
I also don't understand why NASCAR feels the need to control these starts. When the green flag drops, whatever happens happens. If the leader spins his tires, well, too bad, that's part of racing.
Let the damn racers race!

Acadia
09-16-2012, 06:12 PM
Stupid is as stupid does. This rule is pure stupid.

Since the race starts in T4, mandating by rule who shall lead when they are at the start/finish line is plain stupid. It's like they can sort of start racing, but not until they cross the start finish line. Stupid, stupid, stupid. How about this... the leader is scored as the leader until the green flag is given, which happens in T4, then whoever is leading after the green flag waves is the leader. Like someone said, if I were the leader, I'd spin and have the trophy handed to me, screw the 2P car.

Want to talk about inconsistent and different rules, then talk about the different rules for SPEC and built motors. Now there is some 50 shades of grey. If those engines were equal, there shouldn't be a need for different rules packages. You want to be black and white, do so all the time, not just when it is in your best interest.

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 06:45 PM
The purpose is to start the race at speed. They are started ahead of the line so they can resume the speed they were stopped at when a caution flies!
It's simple not stupid!
And, just one of many things that could happen. Car in 2nd place is a half lap behind at a caution. Now cars go double file for a restart of green, white, checkered and 2nd place car jumps 1st place car and gets win. BS
And the spec motor... who ran that? The spec motor is no where near being any prefered engine of the WMT in the near future at this time or it would be used more often and by more teams in preparation for next year.
BTW: I don't like the fact that you can not grab face masks in the NFL. I think it's BS and stupid. It's there to grab and the players should be allowed to do that... HA

Acadia
09-16-2012, 06:49 PM
The purpose is to get the race back to speed. They are started ahead of the line so they can resume the speed they were stopped at when a caution flies!
It's simple not stupid!



That needs much more explanation. Go ahead.

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 07:24 PM
I do not need to explain anything to you. You have proved in the past no matter what is said, you are right and also have difficulties understanding how things are. Figure it out yourself. It is actually quite simple.

Sicklajoie
09-16-2012, 07:31 PM
The purpose is to start the race at speed. They are started ahead of the line so they can resume the speed they were stopped at when a caution flies!
It's simple not stupid!
And, just one of many things that could happen. Car in 2nd place is a half lap behind at a caution. Now cars go double file for a restart of green, white, checkered and 2nd place car jumps 1st place car and gets win. BS
And the spec motor... who ran that? The spec motor is no where near being any prefered engine of the WMT in the near future at this time or it would be used more often and by more teams in preparation for next year.
BTW: I don't like the fact that you can not grab face masks in the NFL. I think it's BS and stupid. It's there to grab and the players should be allowed to do that... HA
Sorry but I hafta disagree.
Here's more things that can happen... the leader misses a shift, the leader spins his tires, or the leader is just plain asleep at the start and the 2nd place guy beats the leader to the line, and YET the 2nd place guy gets penalized.
Now THAT'S BS!

Sicklajoie
09-16-2012, 07:37 PM
And I hate to bring up something from another series, but the whole Sadler/Keselowski deal at Indy shows how screwed up the restart rules are.
NASCAR so much as admitted that Sadler didn't jump the start, but because he beat Brad K to the line (because Brad spun his tires) Sadler was supposed to GIVE THE LEAD BACK. Yet again, that's BS!
This isn't kindergarten, things aren't always fair. Restarts are part of the game. When the rag drops the race starts, if the leader can't get going, tough toenails!

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 07:42 PM
Sorry but I hafta disagree.
Here's more things that can happen... the leader misses a shift, the leader spins his tires, or the leader is just plain asleep at the start and the 2nd place guy beats the leader to the line, and YET the 2nd place guy gets penalized.
Now THAT'S BS!
Yes you are correct there, BUT, that is the leaders advantage/privilege as being the leader.
And I agree that he should have that as the leader. LEADER = LEADING THE RACE
He was leading at the caution, he should lead starting the race at the line.

Sicklajoie
09-16-2012, 07:46 PM
http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/46057/2890925650047627589S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2890925650047627589DHuiqU)

Sicklajoie
09-16-2012, 07:49 PM
Yes you are correct there, BUT, that is the leaders advantage/privilege as being the leader.
And I agree that he should have that as the leader. LEADER = LEADING THE RACE
He was leading at the caution, he should lead starting the race at the line.


If that's the way you want it, then the leader and 2nd place should be single file and the rest of the field double file, or just do away with double file restarts period.

Groundpounder
09-16-2012, 07:50 PM
It's a stupid rule, period. But that aside, they aren't enforcing it the way it's written. After the Icebreaker, Chad little himself said that the rule has an exception if the leader misses a shift, spins his tires, ect. Apparently, both at the Icebreaker and last night, the leader spun his tires, and the person making the call ignored the exception that Chad himself said is in the rule.

Groundpounder
09-16-2012, 07:56 PM
If that's the way you want it, then the leader and 2nd place should be single file and the rest of the field double file, or just do away with double file restarts period.

A lot of dirt venues use what is termed a "Delaware Start", where the leader is by himself on the front row and everyone else is double file behind him. If there really is some need to protect some cockamamy "privilege" bestowed on the leader, that is a much better way to do it vs. having some clown in the tower manupulating the outcome of the race.

Magicshoes12
09-16-2012, 08:00 PM
Two Things

1. Restart rule is Bull, especially if leader spins his tires.

2. I am happy that Riverhead fans got to see 200 Laps with the Heat being Scrapped, while I went to Monadnock and they scrapped the heat race because of car count but didn't add the 25 laps to the 175 and thats two years in a row now they did that at Monadnock. To me that isn't fair to me as a person who bought a ticket to a race billed as a 200 which Monadnock was.

I am now not going to New Hampshire or Stafford because it's becoming a joke. I will be at Thompson but that's because it has the MRS, ISMA, NEMA and a bunch of others. There is no consistancy with calls or much of anything....That is soley my opinion and thoughts in my eyes on stuff

Groundpounder
09-16-2012, 08:09 PM
Amazing the concepts coming up here.
Plain and simple. The leader is 1st at the caution.
Re-starting the race, he should start as 1st at the line.
Oh yeah, I already stated that. Sorry.

If you really think that coddling the leader of a race is more important than putting on a show for the fans (who pay the bills, after all), you better start working on a business model for the tour as a participant sport vs. a spectator sport.

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 08:14 PM
If you really think that coddling the leader of a race is more important than putting on a show for the fans (who pay the bills, after all), you better start working on a business model for the tour as a participant sport vs. a spectator sport.

Huh? The leader at the caution shouldnt be the leader at the start?
You really think that?
So due to a caution, you must think that the lead automatically comes up for grabs, BEFORE THE START/FINISH LINE?
Sorry I don't.
And you think an instance like this 'puts on a show for the fans'? Sorry, I believe the whole show should 'put on a show', not one instance.

Groundpounder
09-16-2012, 08:30 PM
Huh? The leader at the caution shouldnt be the leader at the start?
You really think that?
So due to a caution, you must think that the lead automatically comes up for grabs, BEFORE THE START/FINISH LINE?
Sorry I don't.
And you think an instance like this 'puts on a show for the fans'? Sorry, I believe the whole show should 'put on a show', not one instance.

The lead comes up for grabs when the green flag flies, period. If you don't want the lead to be up for grabs until the s/f line, then don't throw the green 'til then. The second place car having to backpedal for fear of being penalized is absolutely NOT putting on a show for the fans.

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 08:33 PM
The lead comes up for grabs when the green flag flies, period. If you don't want the lead to be up for grabs until the s/f line, then don't throw the green 'til then. The second place car having to backpedal for fear of being penalized is absolutely NOT putting on a show for the fans.

Yes, I absolutely agree!!! (at the start finish line, where the race actually starts!)

Sicklajoie
09-16-2012, 08:34 PM
Huh? The leader at the caution shouldnt be the leader at the start?
You really think that?
So due to a caution, you must think that the lead automatically comes up for grabs, BEFORE THE START/FINISH LINE?
Sorry I don't.
And you think an instance like this 'puts on a show for the fans'? Sorry, I believe the whole show should 'put on a show', not one instance.
I guess we should eliminate competitive pit stops, too.
When the yellow comes out, all teams will hit pit road and do whatever they want and come out in the position the position they were when they went in... we don't want to penalize the leader if he were to have a bad pit stop...
Better yet, screw the whole race. Just have everyone go out for practice and whoever is fastest will be declared the winner of the "race".

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 08:36 PM
I guess we should eliminate competitive pit stops, too.
When the yellow comes out, all teams will hit pit road and do whatever they want and come out in the position the position they were when they went in... we don't want to penalize the leader if he were to have a bad pit stop...
Better yet, screw the whole race. Just have everyone go out for practice and whoever is fastest will be declared the winner of the "race".

I am really not sure what that has to do with the Riverhead restart and this particular situation but ok..

Acadia
09-16-2012, 08:42 PM
The rule is clear. Leader leads the race. Fast start. Slow start. Spin tires. He leads period.
The green flag starts the restart but scoring starts at the line.
Do I like the call. No. Did they make the correct call. Yes.
The drivers know the rule AND the penalty is severe, purposely so it's not done, placed last on the lead lap. Jimmy should have let off knowing this rule. I talked with Johnny Bush and a tour official at length after the race and Johnny agrees with a clear black and white rule. Only exception here is if the 3rd place starter spins the leader before the line. Then it's a per situation call.
Why should rules differ between touring or upper level divisions? Sorry, consistency makes it black and white with clarity. Different rules cause confusion among divisions.


It is absolutely, irrefutably and conclusively stupid to start a race (double file) in T4 and mandate the the 1P car can not be passed until the Start/Finish line.

Who is Johnny Bush? Is this the same Johnny Bush that rarely runs an event and isn't even listed in the Media Guide as an "other" driver? What sort of credibility does he bring to be a reference on rules? Why should I care what Johnny Bush has to say about rules? Is this the same Johnny Bush that has run 4 events this season, never finished on the lead lap, and finished 17th (DNF), 20th (down 1 lap), 14th (down 3 laps), and 18th (down 5 laps) in those four races? Last season he took out a race leader. What sort of history does he have to be an expert on rules?

Why don't you talk to Stefanik, Christopher, Garbarino, Szegedy, Mike Boehler, you know, someone that has been around and knows something about racing, and rules and stuff like that. People that really make/made the Tour what it is, not the semi part part part part-time field fillers. Who cares what Johnny Bush thinks? If it was Stefanik, Christopher, Garbarino, Barry, Fiore, Sanderson, Partridge, Darling, Hill, Whelan, Blewett, etc., I might listen. Tell us about your conversations with credible references.

Cherish these last three Modified Tour events.

Sicklajoie
09-16-2012, 08:43 PM
I am really not sure what that has to do with the Riverhead restart and this particular situation but ok..

As Groundpounder put it, the need to coddle the leader of the race.

Acadia
09-16-2012, 08:46 PM
I guess we should eliminate competitive pit stops, too.
When the yellow comes out, all teams will hit pit road and do whatever they want and come out in the position the position they were when they went in... we don't want to penalize the leader if he were to have a bad pit stop...
Better yet, screw the whole race. Just have everyone go out for practice and whoever is fastest will be declared the winner of the "race".


That's why we have red flags at Loudon, to get rid of pit stop competition.

Forget practice, whoever shows up first at tech wins!!!

Acadia
09-16-2012, 08:49 PM
The lead comes up for grabs when the green flag flies, period. If you don't want the lead to be up for grabs until the s/f line, then don't throw the green 'til then. The second place car having to backpedal for fear of being penalized is absolutely NOT putting on a show for the fans.



All those that do not understand this, please identify yourselves.

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 08:53 PM
It is absolutely, irrefutably and conclusively stupid to start a race (double file) in T4 and mandate the the 1P car can not be passed until the Start/Finish line.

Who is Johnny Bush? Is this the same Johnny Bush that rarely runs an event and isn't even listed in the Media Guide as an "other" driver? What sort of credibility does he bring to be a reference on rules? Why should I care what Johnny Bush has to say about rules? Is this the same Johnny Bush that has run 4 events this season, never finished on the lead lap, and finished 17th (DNF), 20th (down 1 lap), 14th (down 3 laps), and 18th (down 5 laps) in those four races? Last season he took out a race leader. What sort of history does he have to be an expert on rules?

Why don't you talk to Stefanik, Christopher, Garbarino, Szegedy, Mike Boehler, you know, someone that has been around and knows something about racing, and rules and stuff like that. People that really make/made the Tour what it is, not the semi part part part part-time field fillers. Who cares what Johnny Bush thinks? If it was Stefanik, Christopher, Garbarino, Barry, Fiore, Sanderson, Partridge, Darling, Hill, Whelan, Blewett, etc., I might listen. Tell us about your conversations with credible references.

Cherish these last three Modified Tour events.

I will relay that to Johnny, who by the way, has been racing as long if not longer then many you mention.
BTW: Why are you never satisfied with any elses opinions or facts? Where do you get yours? Oh yeah, you will change subject or question the question... AS USUAL!!!
Maybe YOU should do a little of this yourself instead of expecting others to do things for you!
I mean, you took the time to look up Bush's stats didn't you, maybe take the time to go to his beginning and give ALL his stats EVERYWHERE... You can get back to me at the end of the week... LOL


As Groundpounder put it, the need to coddle the leader of the race.

Again, ok.

After 20 minutes questioning this with the official last night, he did convince me that this is the best solution. He gave many situations and what the solutions could be. Notice, could, not would. This is the rule and according to the rule, the call was correct. As I did mention, didn't say I like it but it was correct.
As for groundpounder and what Chad said about wheel spin, well if it wasn't put in the rules, it means nada unfortunately.
I also questioned the lucky dog and letting them catch up on the last lap before the green, not giving enough time to catch the field and I now also agree on why they do it that way.
I will not change my opinion so I am done here. I don't beat a dead horse so hash it out guys...
Good luck!

uticamike
09-16-2012, 09:41 PM
BTW: I don't like the fact that you can not grab face masks in the NFL. I think it's BS and stupid. It's there to grab and the players should be allowed to do that... HA

Joking aside, this is a ridiculous parallel. Averting serious injury is hardly on par with what is proving to be contentious debate on a rule whose basis is on what is "fair"

to the leader of a race on a restart. Drop the green where you want but once'd dropped its RACE ON or should be. I gotta believe most race fans get this but not all forum

moderators apparently. This controversy isn't going away anytime soon I believe.
..

hasbeen
09-16-2012, 09:44 PM
It is absolutely, irrefutably and conclusively stupid to start a race (double file) in T4 and mandate the the 1P car can not be passed until the Start/Finish line.

Who is Johnny Bush? Is this the same Johnny Bush that rarely runs an event and isn't even listed in the Media Guide as an "other" driver? What sort of credibility does he bring to be a reference on rules? Why should I care what Johnny Bush has to say about rules? Is this the same Johnny Bush that has run 4 events this season, never finished on the lead lap, and finished 17th (DNF), 20th (down 1 lap), 14th (down 3 laps), and 18th (down 5 laps) in those four races? Last season he took out a race leader. What sort of history does he have to be an expert on rules?

Why don't you talk to Stefanik, Christopher, Garbarino, Szegedy, Mike Boehler, you know, someone that has been around and knows something about racing, and rules and stuff like that. People that really make/made the Tour what it is, not the semi part part part part-time field fillers. Who cares what Johnny Bush thinks? If it was Stefanik, Christopher, Garbarino, Barry, Fiore, Sanderson, Partridge, Darling, Hill, Whelan, Blewett, etc., I might listen. Tell us about your conversations with credible references.

Cherish these last three Modified Tour events.

WOW I usually jus read the posts and have a good chuckle, especially when you post.But I dont come on and rip your thoughts apart.
What have you done in the mod series lately? Why dont you post your finishes?
I know John Bush and he is one of the nicest guys you could meet..Where do you get off ripping him and his "results"? What ever they are IM sure there better than yours...The point about him being a "field filler"...So if John didnt win a race (which I know he has) he has no credibility? It takes 24-28 cars to make a field..Those 24-28 cant win every nite.Last I heard John didnt have to many guys on his crew.
With all your expertise why dont you see if you could be his crew chief?Or better yet.Im sure he could use some funding for his car..How bout you open your wallet up for him??I usually give you the benefit of doubt on this board,but after that last post I guess the guys on this board are RIGHT about you

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 10:10 PM
BTW: I don't like the fact that you can not grab face masks in the NFL. I think it's BS and stupid. It's there to grab and the players should be allowed to do that... HA

Joking aside, this is a ridiculous parallel. Averting serious injury is hardly on par with what is proving to be contentious debate on a rule whose basis is on what is "fair"

to the leader of a race on a restart. Drop the green where you want but once'd dropped its RACE ON or should be. I gotta believe most race fans get this but not all forum

moderators apparently. This controversy isn't going away anytime soon I believe.
..

Nice formatting on your post.
Obviously you didn't get the joke in the facemasks post.
I agree on the green flag. Let's just remove the start finish and let'm rip...
Hey utica, you remember meeting me? We have met and chatted at Spencer...

DR02
09-16-2012, 10:12 PM
Any problems with the rules concern the car owners, the drivers, and anyone who has a financial or occupational interest only. Nobody else can petition to try to change the rules. All you can do is cause trouble. Bob Garbarino has already posted his concern. Is that a big enough name for you?

RGeeProductions
09-16-2012, 10:13 PM
WOW I usually jus read the posts and have a good chuckle, especially when you post.But I dont come on and rip your thoughts apart.
What have you done in the mod series lately? Why dont you post your finishes?
I know John Bush and he is one of the nicest guys you could meet..Where do you get off ripping him and his "results"? What ever they are IM sure there better than yours...The point about him being a "field filler"...So if John didnt win a race (which I know he has) he has no credibility? It takes 24-28 cars to make a field..Those 24-28 cant win every nite.Last I heard John didnt have to many guys on his crew.
With all your expertise why dont you see if you could be his crew chief?Or better yet.Im sure he could use some funding for his car..How bout you open your wallet up for him??I usually give you the benefit of doubt on this board,but after that last post I guess the guys on this board are RIGHT about you

As for Johnny being a nice guy. He was coming back in his own ride, finally, to riverhead's race when he heard we didn't have a car due to late night issues. The man gave up his car to us! Amazing.
And many do not know he has raced MANY tracks and cars for more years then even I remember....

Rob29
09-17-2012, 12:05 AM
I don't see what the controversy is. A rule is a rule. It's the same rule in all NASCAR divisions. Since they went to double file restarts you cannot beat the leader to the line. At all. That's it.

You may feel it's a BS rule, but the race wasn't "manipulated" by someone in the scoring tower. The followed the rule. I'd say Jimmy probably knows the restart rule, and he knows that he broke it. Whether Preece spun the tires doesn't matter. Jimmy beat the leader to the line and that's it. They made the right call. If they didn't call it, then they would be manipulating the race by ignoring the rule.

Axel
09-17-2012, 09:47 AM
In my opinion, the rule is unecessary and gives the leader a serious advantage. Racing is about being the fastest guy to the line.

It was tough for me since I really like Jimmy, Ryan and Todd Szegedy. Tough luck for Coby....

It was a fun night of racing, good to see many old friends again and nice to introduce new friends to modified racing. As always the central jersey crew made getting to and from the race just as much fun as the race itself. Great nite, great weather, great crowd, great racing.

Acadia
09-17-2012, 10:52 AM
BTW: I don't like the fact that you can not grab face masks in the NFL. I think it's BS and stupid. It's there to grab and the players should be allowed to do that... HA

Joking aside, this is a ridiculous parallel. Averting serious injury is hardly on par with what is proving to be contentious debate on a rule whose basis is on what is "fair"

to the leader of a race on a restart. Drop the green where you want but once'd dropped its RACE ON or should be. I gotta believe most race fans get this but not all forum

moderators apparently. This controversy isn't going away anytime soon I believe.
..



Well said. Just more of the same, changing the subject. I drill down and get to the root, people get scared and change the subject. Happens all the time.

Linda
09-17-2012, 11:06 AM
As for Johnny being a nice guy. He was coming back in his own ride, finally, to riverhead's race when he heard we didn't have a car due to late night issues. The man gave up his car to us! Amazing.
And many do not know he has raced MANY tracks and cars for more years then even I remember....

Agree, one of THE nicest guys on the tour and to be ripped apart like that is oh so not right!!! I don't usually get involved in these discussions/arguments but I just couldn't help myself with this one! RUDE, not a nice person to criticize someone they do not have a clue about...except reading statistics!! I couldn't make Riverhead but when I read that Johnny let Ken use his car, that would be Johnny..a great friend and sportsman!! I wish some people would realize that not only spectators read this forum, the drivers, owners and crew read this, just not necessary to belittle someone because they are not a front runner.

RGeeProductions
09-17-2012, 11:09 AM
Well said. Just more of the same, changing the subject. I drill down and get to the root, people get scared and change the subject. Happens all the time.

LOL, you get to the root?
Now that's funny stuff there!!!

Groundpounder
09-17-2012, 11:12 AM
Agreed, Johnny Bush is one of the nicest people I've ever met in this sport. And his opinions deserve every bit as much credibility and respect as anyone else who has been in the sport as long as he has, no matter if you agree with him or not.

Groundpounder
09-17-2012, 11:14 AM
I drill down and get to the root,

Are you a dentist? Just wondering, cuz reading some of your posts is like getting a root canal.

BigMac
09-17-2012, 11:38 AM
Any problems with the rules concern the car owners, the drivers, and anyone who has a financial or occupational interest only. Nobody else can petition to try to change the rules. All you can do is cause trouble. Bob Garbarino has already posted his concern. Is that a big enough name for you?

I have to disagree. Any fan who drops $40 or $50 to attend a race has a say. They might not have Nascar's ear but they have a say, More and more of them are saying they are staying home because the rules and formats are jacked up. Its a spectator sport. No spectators equals no sport. Remember that. Fix the rule, change the rule or eliminate the rule. Its effecting the entertainment value of the product and has to go. Nobody but Nascar even wants the rule. The second car across the line has now won 2 of the races this year. That goes against the very purpose of racing.

Bob T. Racer
09-17-2012, 11:46 AM
I guess it's going to take a BIG wreck or someone getting hurt to change the stupid rule that NASCAR created last year. When the 2nd place guy slams on his brakes because he was a foot ahead of the 1st place car 40 feet before the s/f line and we have the BIG ONE and someone gets hurt, then maybe NASCAR will get rid of the stupid rule they made up. Unfortunately that's what has to happen. Even Robin Pemberton said that Elliot Sadler did nothing wrong, but they penalized him anyway. So what does that tell you!!! Racers have been starting races when the green flag flies for over 75 years and now NASCAR has come along and screwed it all up. So tell me, why has no other forms of racing have this problem?

hasbeen
09-17-2012, 01:31 PM
Are you a dentist? Just wondering, cuz reading some of your posts is like getting a root canal.

THAT WAS JUST TO FUNNY!!! Thanks for the "quote of the day"
I still cant stop laughing 10 minutes later ;)

Acadia
09-17-2012, 02:43 PM
I have to disagree. Any fan who drops $40 or $50 to attend a race has a say. They might not have Nascar's ear but they have a say, More and more of them are saying they are staying home because the rules and formats are jacked up. Its a spectator sport. No spectators equals no sport. Remember that. Fix the rule, change the rule or eliminate the rule. Its effecting the entertainment value of the product and has to go. Nobody but Nascar even wants the rule. The second car across the line has now won 2 of the races this year. That goes against the very purpose of racing.


I was going to go to Bristol but didn't because of this nonsense. I was going to go to Riverhead but didn't because of this nonsense. I'm from the LI area and was looking forward to a day touring the island, but this nonsense ruined it. I pay for the product, which enables the product, and therefore I can have a say. If you buy something and it doesn't work, don't you make sure you get satisfaction or your money back? That's what you are supposed to do, that isn't causing trouble.

The product is being ruined with the stupid restart rules, the absurd SPEC motor and gear rules, the red flag breaks, and on and on. It is being dumbed down to the lowest level of participants. Like someone said earlier, it is getting like high school sports where even the losers are given a win.

Cherish these last three races.

MOD11RACER
09-17-2012, 07:04 PM
I don't see what the controversy is. A rule is a rule. It's the same rule in all NASCAR divisions. Since they went to double file restarts you cannot beat the leader to the line. At all. That's it.

You may feel it's a BS rule, but the race wasn't "manipulated" by someone in the scoring tower. The followed the rule. I'd say Jimmy probably knows the restart rule, and he knows that he broke it. Whether Preece spun the tires doesn't matter. Jimmy beat the leader to the line and that's it. They made the right call. If they didn't call it, then they would be manipulating the race by ignoring the rule.

Agreed. A rule is a rule end of story and NASCAR calls it the same everytime out. The drivers and the teams know the rule.

If you go talk to the Crew chiefs, car owners and drivers they will tell you it's the rule and they are OK with it. RGee very well put.

By the way how many of you that are *****ing on here went to the race Saturday night ?

What a great night of racing. 203 laps at Riverhead and no need for any wrecker service, not one car on the hook.

Who would have thought smaller fields = better racing. Hats off to the WMT. The Tour has had a very good year racing wise.

MJProcko
09-17-2012, 07:16 PM
All I know is that under these rules and it's a G/W/C and the car outside of me is faster i'm hitting the gas and then backing off so they go right by me before the finish line...... sadly a win is a win.

Acadia
09-17-2012, 07:38 PM
All I know is that under these rules and it's a G/W/C and the car outside of me is faster i'm hitting the gas and then backing off so they go right by me before the finish line...... sadly a win is a win.

Well put. And yet somehow that is supposed to not be the equivalent of manipulating the win. Oh yeah, I'm sure nobody would ever do that.

Prohibition was a rule too. Heck, it was a law.

Ask Masse and Blewitt what they think of the rule. Well, given the current conditions, nobody would dare speak their mind. It might get pretty testy in tech. Geez, the crowd let it be known when Masse was ruled out of a win. It's a stupid rule, dangerous too. We just have to wait for a pile up as Bob T. Racer mentioned.

Goldy
09-17-2012, 08:00 PM
I have to disagree. Any fan who drops $40 or $50 to attend a race has a say. They might not have Nascar's ear but they have a say, More and more of them are saying they are staying home because the rules and formats are jacked up. Its a spectator sport. No spectators equals no sport. Remember that. Fix the rule, change the rule or eliminate the rule. Its effecting the entertainment value of the product and has to go. Nobody but Nascar even wants the rule. The second car across the line has now won 2 of the races this year. That goes against the very purpose of racing.

Good stuff Mac... my response to this would be the same I had at last years showdown when Masse got the screwin'.. fans get robbed and the rule blows; yea it's a rule, and they followed it, they were consistent, Jimmy should know it and he could have given the lead back (which feels just plain stupid even saying)... I liked the angle of just throw the damn green at the S/F line then.. It’s just silly all around and something needs to be done about it.

Kinda refreshing to see the old Bear head here making his case. As usual he has gone off the charts, BUT - in spirit, in his argument of it being just about the worst rule in racing - well, I'm on board with that.

... and agreed, it won't be until the P2 car brakes on a restart and stacks up the field causing "the big one" before something is done about it.. but at least then the announcers will get to say "the big one"... how cool... how NASCAR... I want me one of those NACSAR jackets.. shoot, I go for the wrecks n' retaliation anyway... controversy wins!!!

csammy
09-17-2012, 08:09 PM
ice breaker justin bonsignore running second black flagged jumping restart
riverhead jimmy blewett running second black flagged jumping restart
unoh of last year steve masse leader of the race black flagged jumping restart
interesting
i guess nascar does not know what they want in a restart

uticamike
09-17-2012, 09:20 PM
I don't see what the controversy is. A rule is a rule. It's the same rule in all NASCAR divisions. Since they went to double file restarts you cannot beat the leader to the line. At all. That's it.

You may feel it's a BS rule, but the race wasn't "manipulated" by someone in the scoring tower. The followed the rule. I'd say Jimmy probably knows the restart rule, and he knows that he broke it. Whether Preece spun the tires doesn't matter. Jimmy beat the leader to the line and that's it. They made the right call. If they didn't call it, then they would be manipulating the race by ignoring the rule.

No one is arguing a rule is a rule. What the debate is whether this is a good rule or not. It's not going away as long as something like starting (or restarting) at one line but not passing until you get to another line is in effect. I've asked before, how is the outside guy supposed to know if the leader spun, broke, sandbagged etc? Racers focus on the flag and the spotter yelling "green, green, green. Who ever thought this up has never driven a race car
I think. It's dumb plain and simple.

Lugnuts
09-17-2012, 10:30 PM
Mod11racer,

You are correct a great night of modified racing, no carnage to speak of just a few bent up bumpers; however if I am not mistaken didn't John McKennedy in the Hillbilly 79 go off on the hook.

Rob29
09-17-2012, 10:33 PM
No one is arguing a rule is a rule. What the debate is whether this is a good rule or not. It's not going away as long as something like starting (or restarting) at one line but not passing until you get to another line is in effect. I've asked before, how is the outside guy supposed to know if the leader spun, broke, sandbagged etc? Racers focus on the flag and the spotter yelling "green, green, green. Who ever thought this up has never driven a race car
I think. It's dumb plain and simple.

Okay I see what you're saying. My fault for misunderstanding.

Personally, I wish like you all it would basically be open to "whatever happens, happens" AFTER the leader goes within the starting box. Leader starts, but if they spin the tires/miss a shift, second can take the spot.

I loved when (speaking about Cup, basically) guys would jump to the right side and pass some people when it was still single-file starts.

fastbackss
09-18-2012, 08:56 AM
Personally, I wish like you all it would basically be open to "whatever happens, happens" AFTER the leader goes within the starting box. Leader starts, but if they spin the tires/miss a shift, second can take the spot.



Rob has stated what I was going to say.

I am hesitant to say I would like to see something that is subjective, but in this case I think this is a fair middle ground. As long as the leader fires first, within the start box, it is a restart. Wall Stadium did this for years and you could always tell whether the leader "started" the race or whether the outside car jumped him.

Regardless of our feelings on it, I too am pleasantly surprised to see the rule being enforced consistently.

Groundpounder
09-18-2012, 09:17 AM
I know it's been around for a while now, but where did this "the leader starts the race" crap come from anyway? Used to be the guy in the flag stand started the race.

MJProcko
09-18-2012, 10:48 AM
I know it's been around for a while now, but where did this "the leader starts the race" crap come from anyway? Used to be the guy in the flag stand started the race.

has been around short track racing as long as I can remember. The leader will start hitting the gas between 3&4 if the Flagman likes the start he drops the green or if he doesn't he tosses the yellow or the hopefully the lazy green to keep the field from piling up on each other.

The problem with the rule as I understand it is that the leader is supposed to start the race in the designated area somewhere coming out of 4. Then although the cars have started, they can't really race until they get half way down the straight away. The flagman must have to throw the green flag before the flagstand otherwise the front cars won't see it drop so the green is actually out before the cars can legally race and that is the problem.

IMO the race should start at the designated area coming off 4 and let them go once the leader fires. If the race is started when the leader goes then the flagman has time to wave off the start before they get to full speed or drop the green confirming a clean start.

Acadia
09-18-2012, 11:13 AM
It is far better when the flagman waves the flag to start or restart the race.

From watching many races at Islip and Shangri-La, where the flagman started the race and waved off the re/start if the field wasn't behaving, it was far better than what we have today. What is going on now is just bizarre. The race is sort of started, but don't pass until you get to the line. Sounds like another attempt at adding drama and intrigue, and all it does is cause bewilderment and loss of interest.

The race should start when the flagman sees a neat and orderly field, and then lets them rip. Don't you think it is strange with the present arrangement where the flagman waves the green after they started?????

NWMT PR
09-18-2012, 11:20 AM
This will be my one and only comment on this thread. I'll leave you all to debate the current rule, there is nothing that I can add to that part of the discussion.

I believe I've said it on here more than once before, but the restart procedure is - and will continue to be - uniform throughout the national and regional series. If you will remember, the double file restarts were implemented at the regional level one year before they were at the national level. When the national level started it, they had a different procedure, so there was a year there where there were two different types of restarts - one you saw at your local track on Saturday night and one that you saw on your TV on Sunday. And during that one season where there were different procedures, there was frequent confusion - from fans, from media, and from the competitors. So in year 3 of double file restarts at the regional level, the national series procedure was implemented across all series. So that is the background of how we got to this point. I believe this is the third year of uniform procedures.

Groundpounder
09-18-2012, 11:28 AM
I respect your decision to not get into the debate on the rule (and I'll refrain from debating the wisdom of having the same procedures in the WMT as in Cup), but I would like to hear from Nascar (you as their spokesperson) if the exceptions that Chad mentioned back in the spring (if the leader spins his tires, etc.) are really part of that rule or if Chad was just talking out of his a$$.

CuriousGeorge
09-18-2012, 01:05 PM
You sure he spun his tires? Doesnt look like it in the video, and in the interview after, he says he didnt

Acadia
09-18-2012, 01:12 PM
The Rule

9-9 Race Halt / Caution Period / Restart After One (1) Lap
Completion -


A. When a Race is stopped after the completion of at least one (1) lap, cars will
line up in their respective track order in which they were scored. If there is no
restart, and the Race is declared official, the cars will be scored as described in
sub-section 9-14D.


B. Restart procedures will be made known at the Pre-Race drivers meeting.
When the starter gives the "one (1) lap to go" signal, unless otherwise
notified, cars will line up in columns of two (2) for all restarts. The Race leader will
have column/lane selection for each restart and is the control car for the restart. All
other lead lap cars must line up in their respective track position. Lapped cars must
line up in their respective track position, behind the last car on the lead lap. Once
the leader receives the “one to go” signal at the start/finish line, all cars exiting pit
road will restart at the rear of the field.




10-2 Green Flag -

A. The green flag signifies the start or restart of racing conditions. At the
beginning of the Race/restarts, when the green flag is displayed by the starter, cars
must maintain position as designated by NASCAR Officials and stay in their lane
and/or line until they have crossed the start/finish line and the No. 2 position must
not beat the No. 1 position to the start/finish line. NASCAR Officials may make a
special ruling on restarts for any Race (for example, following a red flag, the yellow
flag may constitute an official restart of the Race).

B. All restarts shall be made at a designated area on the race track and will be
made known to the drivers in the Pre-Race driver’s meeting.

C. The NASCAR Officials will signify one (1) lap to go, a lap before the green
flag will again be displayed.

JWfor8x
09-18-2012, 05:37 PM
I was going to go to Bristol but didn't because of this nonsense. I was going to go to Riverhead but didn't because of this nonsense. I'm from the LI area and was looking forward to a day touring the island, but this nonsense ruined it. I pay for the product, which enables the product, and therefore I can have a say. If you buy something and it doesn't work, don't you make sure you get satisfaction or your money back? That's what you are supposed to do, that isn't causing trouble.

The product is being ruined with the stupid restart rules, the absurd SPEC motor and gear rules, the red flag breaks, and on and on. It is being dumbed down to the lowest level of participants. Like someone said earlier, it is getting like high school sports where even the losers are given a win.

Cherish these last three races.

Hmmnnn...let me see. You didn't go to the Bristol race because of nonsense and you didn't go to the Riverhead race because of nonsense. Okay, it's your money and you can spend it or not any way that you want. I feel sorry for you though as you would have had a beautiful day touring the island and gotten to see one of the better tour races that they have had there. I should know because I have been to all of them with the single exception of the June 1992 race when my mother died. I can't imagine anyone, even the NASCAR PR guy Jason who does not dislike some of NASCAR's rules. Personally, I don't like time trial qualifying and I don't like the restart procedure. Guess what? That doesn't matter. I love the racing. I put up with what I don't like and enjoy the show. The final restart did not ruin anything for me. Too bad for you. By the way, you owe Johnny Bush a public apology. If you do that, you might actually gain some respect.

Acadia
09-18-2012, 06:28 PM
Hmmnnn...let me see. You didn't go to the Bristol race because of nonsense and you didn't go to the Riverhead race because of nonsense. Okay, it's your money and you can spend it or not any way that you want. I feel sorry for you though as you would have had a beautiful day touring the island and gotten to see one of the better tour races that they have had there. I should know because I have been to all of them with the single exception of the June 1992 race when my mother died. I can't imagine anyone, even the NASCAR PR guy Jason who does not dislike some of NASCAR's rules. Personally, I don't like time trial qualifying and I don't like the restart procedure. Guess what? That doesn't matter. I love the racing. I put up with what I don't like and enjoy the show. The final restart did not ruin anything for me. Too bad for you. By the way, you owe Johnny Bush a public apology. If you do that, you might actually gain some respect.


Well, last year's Riverhead event was 175 laps, 11 cautions/red flags for 100 laps, or only 75 laps of "racing". People were laughing in disgust. It was a real stinker. That played a role in my call to not go. That is closer to the norm on the itsy-bitsy bullrings. The recent Riverhead event was a gem, a rare occurrence. Cherish it.

I'm sure Johnny Bush is a great guy, he just doesn't have a record as a mover and shaker in the world of racing to be used as a reference on the goodness of a racing rule. Nobody said he wasn't a nice guy. You all are getting your thongs pulled up way too tight over a change in subject, or diversion, as usual. Opinions on rules should be left to the people that have made the sport what it is, and can actually be in a place to be affected by the subject rule. Have a private meeting with Masse, Bonsignore, and Blewitt, and their team members and owners and see what they think of the rule. But don't expect anyone to speak their true thoughts in public.

Would you consult with G. W. Bush on nookular [sic] weapons, WMDs, or how to build an economy? Or ask Clinton or Edwards about fidelity advice? See what I mean?

Respect? This is a board... I don't know you or anyone else. Respect isn't an issue.

RGeeProductions
09-18-2012, 06:32 PM
"That Acadia guys a nut"
That's a text I got yesterday from someone that fits your 'special' category of importance...
How's that!!!!

Acadia
09-18-2012, 06:38 PM
"That Acadia guys a nut"
That's a text I got yesterday from someone that fits your 'special' category of importance...
How's that!!!!



Who was just talking about the respect thing? See what I mean? And that is from the moderator!!!! Again, the benchmark.

uticamike
09-18-2012, 08:21 PM
Don't know why I'm bothering but I'll make an attempt to now show how a simple restart procedure works. For those that hate anything non-NASCAR please put that away as you view this. The recent VMRS race at Waterford has, what I think, is a text book example on how to do this thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXbE92KUYY4&feature=youtu.be

The race was entertaining in total but I'm referring to the lap 70 restart which can be seen at around the 11:30 mark. Tommy Barrett jumps the restart and the officials catch up to it as the cars are speeding down the back chute. ( likely
he was warned) and again we see the second lap 70 restart and Barrett now spins his tires ( tuff sheet) and Chris Pasteryak retakes the lead.

This is short lived however as there was a crash in 3 and 4 before lap 70 was completed so they went back to the last scored lap (another brilliantly simple concept) and restarted lap 70 yet another time. No issues so the race was now underway. I have not found (and I have looked) anywhere on the Internet where people are up in arms over this.

Only NASCAR and their "wisdom" can take something like starting/restarting a race and turn it into something that ends up a mess.

Acadia
09-18-2012, 08:41 PM
Nice example.

What I liked was the yellow, calling off the restart. On the WMT, they get on the radio and tell the car that jumped to slow down and let the car that was supposed to lead catch up, and then he can go. I stopped listening to the radio, couldn't take it anymore.

Teds Race Tours
09-18-2012, 10:04 PM
This will be my one and only comment on this thread. I'll leave you all to debate the current rule, there is nothing that I can add to that part of the discussion.

I believe I've said it on here more than once before, but the restart procedure is - and will continue to be - uniform throughout the national and regional series. If you will remember, the double file restarts were implemented at the regional level one year before they were at the national level. When the national level started it, they had a different procedure, so there was a year there where there were two different types of restarts - one you saw at your local track on Saturday night and one that you saw on your TV on Sunday. And during that one season where there were different procedures, there was frequent confusion - from fans, from media, and from the competitors. So in year 3 of double file restarts at the regional level, the national series procedure was implemented across all series. So that is the background of how we got to this point. I believe this is the third year of uniform procedures.

There are MANY rules that may work, and be useful, at Daytona, that just don't work on a quarter mile.The restart rule being one of them. The old rule worked pretty well for, say, 50 plus years. Throw the green, start racing. The Lucky Dog is a rule that I believe to be completely stupid. It was invented in the Cup Series when cars stopped racing back to the caution. I don't think it's even needed in the Cup Series, and I know its not needed on the Modified Tour. The Biggest rule that should be changed is the counting of caution laps on tracks that don't have infield pitting, allthough i don't think its necessary at any Modified Track. This past race at Riverhead was the exception, as there were no extended cautions. But typically there is a 10-15 lap caution during the race. 10-15 laps in a 150-200 lap event is torturous for a paying customer to watch. i'm sure if i gave it some thought, I could come up with a plethora of others, but, my main point hasn't changed. There is NO REASON that the WMT needs to be anything close to the Cup Series. It's already far superior to anything Cup could ever think of becoming.

bud
09-19-2012, 03:59 AM
Lol. Good reading. Magic cant believe ur getting turned off and not going to louden (loudon...
Lol)

Rich Mergl
09-19-2012, 06:27 AM
there are many rules that may work, and be useful, at daytona, that just don't work on a quarter mile.the restart rule being one of them. The old rule worked pretty well for, say, 50 plus years. Throw the green, start racing. The lucky dog is a rule that i believe to be completely stupid. It was invented in the cup series when cars stopped racing back to the caution. I don't think it's even needed in the cup series, and i know its not needed on the modified tour. The biggest rule that should be changed is the counting of caution laps on tracks that don't have infield pitting, allthough i don't think its necessary at any modified track. This past race at riverhead was the exception, as there were no extended cautions. But typically there is a 10-15 lap caution during the race. 10-15 laps in a 150-200 lap event is torturous for a paying customer to watch. I'm sure if i gave it some thought, i could come up with a plethora of others, but, my main point hasn't changed. There is no reason that the wmt needs to be anything close to the cup series. It's already far superior to anything cup could ever think of becoming.
amen !!!!!

Magicshoes12
09-19-2012, 07:11 AM
The Lucky Dog is a rule that I believe to be completely stupid. It was invented in the Cup Series when cars stopped racing back to the caution. I don't think it's even needed in the Cup Series, and I know its not needed on the Modified Tour.

I think Ron Silk would disagree with you after receiving it how many times at the world series last year? haha

Acadia
09-19-2012, 08:56 AM
Any problems with the rules concern the car owners, the drivers, and anyone who has a financial or occupational interest only. Nobody else can petition to try to change the rules. All you can do is cause trouble. Bob Garbarino has already posted his concern. Is that a big enough name for you?

I can't find this post by Garbarino... can you please post a link to it?

Axel
09-19-2012, 09:33 AM
I didnt go to last years tour race, but the last 3 or 4 tour races at Riverhead were really entertaining. Great, fun, bullring races. I think last year was an abberation if there were a ton of cautions.

I think the horse is beaten.
We all love modified racing.
Race was great.
One race or last year’s race does not mean the next race will suck or be great (this is what’s great about every race, you never know).
Restart rules per nascar are gonna be the same for all divisions regardless of the venue. We should let them know if we are displeased.
Some people are OK with the rule and enforcement of it.
Some people hate it.
Time to move forward and let go of the past

JE711618
09-19-2012, 11:54 AM
Regarding the restart rule..

Rules are rules. As long as they enforce the rule consistently then that's just the way it has to be until it's changed.
I don't agree with the rule because it brings too many things into question. Whether the leader spins his tires, misses a shift, is caught sleeping, etc. the driver sharing the front row is at the leader's mercy which includes aforementioned mistakes by the leader or the dirty pool factor.
If the driver sharing the front row checks up to allow the leader to cross the line first it could cause a major pig pile, wrecking tons of equipment.
If the driver sharing the front row is forced to give back the position he could see the freight train go by due to being in the slow lane all at the expense of the leader's mistake or dirty pool.

I believe in the K.I.S.S. method.. Keep It Simple Stupid.. Most tracks have a restart line and as soon as the front row hits that line, the chief starter throws the green and it's game on. Period. It removes any issues with spinning tires, miss shifts, or head games by the leader. It takes the restart out of the lead driver's hands and puts it back into the chief starters hands.
If you want the leader to cross the start/finish line first, no matter what the circumstances are, then drop the green at the start/finish line and let them watch the lights. Simple enough. It eliminates any questions or crying foul.

In response to the sanctioning body using one set of race format rules for all national/regional series, I don't agree with it. It doesn't work. Regional series are different. Entries in any regional series within the sanctioning body have high dollar sponsorship, but most don't. Therefore, running a series under the same race regulations as a national series can have a huge effect on a team's season and whether they continue on or fold up shop. You have to have some sort of difference in race procedures in order appeal to the typical short track/local fan and allow the team owners field a car without going broke.

I see using the same set of race procedure rules as somewhat of an identity thing, so the regional fan can turn the TV on and relate to what their watching and what they have seen locally, but rules put in place based off of a high dollar series where every race is televised can have a disastrous effect when applied to the regional side.

There needs to be some give and take. Changing a rule as basic as a restart rule for a regional series can be the difference between 10 cars running at the end as opposed to 24. The more basic and simple the rule, the less chance you have for questioning to arise such as this thread shows.

That's my feeling on it..

BigMac
09-19-2012, 05:04 PM
If Nascar wants the WMT to be run like the boys on Sunday they should pay them like the boys on Sunday. We are all paying more money for admission to a WMT at Thompson than a Cup race at NHMS yet they won't change a simple rule that the fans and competitors think is stupid. The Cup guys went to double file restarts because fans hated the single file starts. Same concept here. Just because there is a rule that is called correctly doesn't mean its a good rule. Ask the 2001 Oakland Raiders about bad rules that are called correctly.

Acadia
09-19-2012, 11:24 PM
Time to move forward and let go of the past

This has nothing to do with letting go of the past. It has all to do with a stupid rule. Nothing was broken, but someone just had to fiddle around.

Double file restarts are fine. Mandating that the 2P car can not beat the lead car to the line just opens up boxes of worms and subjects restarts to massive subjectivity and dirty pool. If the race was simply started at the drop of the green, all this potential for acrimony goes away. Drop the green where ever and whoever crosses the line first is the leader. Done deal. This would be far more exciting than what is going on now. This stupid rule where the 2P car can't pass the lead car before the line is several steps backwards, so it is not possible to move forward without getting rid of the stupid rule. Nothing to do with the past, other than it worked just fine, better than what is going on now.

Capisce??

shep 06
09-20-2012, 05:45 AM
Anybody looking for excuses not to go to tour races has missed alot of great racing this season. That is not to say that I agree with all the rules,but Im not going to "punish" nascar by not going.JMO

Groundpounder
09-20-2012, 07:34 AM
Anybody looking for excuses not to go to tour races has missed alot of great racing this season. That is not to say that I agree with all the rules,but Im not going to "punish" nascar by not going.JMO
I don't know, I guess that depends on what your definition of "great racing" is. I went to Thompson and saw a lot of what I consider dirty driving that seems to have become the norm on the WMT. I see much less of that at MRS events, for example, because they are much less tolerant of it, which makes for what I consider "great racing".

Acadia
09-20-2012, 08:39 AM
Anybody looking for excuses not to go to tour races has missed alot of great racing this season. That is not to say that I agree with all the rules,but Im not going to "punish" nascar by not going.JMO

I don't see anybody making excuses to not go to the races, or to "punish" NASCAR. As has been said a bazillion times, we are paying more for modified races at our dear local tracks than it cost to see a Cup race at Loudon. It's about what I get for that money, and the risk to wasting that money. NASCAR punishes itself, and apparently they like doing it to themselves. Look at the empty stands. Why are so many not buying tickets anymore? The attendance problem is the biggest dirty little secret in NASCAR.

I didn't go to Bristol, and I'm glad. It was a stinker with all those accidents, red flag, competition caution and 54 laps lost. That's over a third of the race lost. And it took forever. As I watched it on TV, I was so glad I didn't go after just a few laps in. Yeah, I'm very glad I didn't go. And Riverhead, yeah, I'm glad I didn't go and see that restart that was overturned by the stupid rule. It was an otherwise pretty good race for a bullring which was then ruined by a stupid rule. So glad I wasn't there to see it and have paid for it.

I made great calls on what races to not go to.

Cherish these last three races.

Axel
09-20-2012, 11:19 AM
Capisce?? actually i dont capice. But here's the deal, bro. I am not gonna get sucked into a self-righteous tirade and back and forth with you.

I'm sure you are a great guy and love modified racing, (if you love modified racing, you cant be a bad person in fact) but your behaviors just smack of being an online snob, bully, self-righteous, one-sided and so covinced you have all of the answers that anyone and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong or in the wrong. This internet/social media society that propgates this kinda crap is doing the opposite of what it's intent was -- to bring people together. You write eloquently, but I'll bet you could be even an even more powerful and perusuasive voice if you behaved online with other mod lovers with a little humility.
Respectfully, Al Rogovin, Flemington NJ

MXCHAMP04
09-20-2012, 03:19 PM
Don't know why I'm bothering but I'll make an attempt to now show how a simple restart procedure works. For those that hate anything non-NASCAR please put that away as you view this. The recent VMRS race at Waterford has, what I think, is a text book example on how to do this thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXbE92KUYY4&feature=youtu.be

The race was entertaining in total but I'm referring to the lap 70 restart which can be seen at around the 11:30 mark. Tommy Barrett jumps the restart and the officials catch up to it as the cars are speeding down the back chute. ( likely
he was warned) and again we see the second lap 70 restart and Barrett now spins his tires ( tuff sheet) and Chris Pasteryak retakes the lead.

This is short lived however as there was a crash in 3 and 4 before lap 70 was completed so they went back to the last scored lap (another brilliantly simple concept) and restarted lap 70 yet another time. No issues so the race was now underway. I have not found (and I have looked) anywhere on the Internet where people are up in arms over this.

Only NASCAR and their "wisdom" can take something like starting/restarting a race and turn it into something that ends up a mess.Man, that was some awesome camera work and editing.

RGeeProductions
09-20-2012, 04:36 PM
actually i dont capice. But here's the deal, bro. I am not gonna get sucked into a self-righteous tirade and back and forth with you.

I'm sure you are a great guy and love modified racing, (if you love modified racing, you cant be a bad person in fact) but your behaviors just smack of being an online snob, bully, self-righteous, one-sided and so covinced you have all of the answers that anyone and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong or in the wrong. This internet/social media society that propgates this kinda crap is doing the opposite of what it's intent was -- to bring people together. You write eloquently, but I'll bet you could be even an even more powerful and perusuasive voice if you behaved online with other mod lovers with a little humility.
Respectfully, Al Rogovin, Flemington NJ

WOW! Alex, I could not have said that any better!
But then again, I am a moderator therefore I am not human and allowed to state facts or an occasional opinion according to at least 2 members here!

Acadia
09-20-2012, 04:50 PM
actually i dont capice. But here's the deal, bro. I am not gonna get sucked into a self-righteous tirade and back and forth with you.

I'm sure you are a great guy and love modified racing, (if you love modified racing, you cant be a bad person in fact) but your behaviors just smack of being an online snob, bully, self-righteous, one-sided and so covinced you have all of the answers that anyone and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong or in the wrong. This internet/social media society that propgates this kinda crap is doing the opposite of what it's intent was -- to bring people together. You write eloquently, but I'll bet you could be even an even more powerful and perusuasive voice if you behaved online with other mod lovers with a little humility.
Respectfully, Al Rogovin, Flemington NJ


Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. - Robert A. Heinlein


I know how that feels.


The thing is, this social media should be enabling people to discuss issues with the anonymity that insulates the discussion from race, creed, religion, where you live, hair color, teeth or no teeth, trade, education, number of chromosomes, Mac or PC, iPhone or Android, expertise, freckles, eye color, breeding, lineage, unibrow, yadayadayada...

I'm not demanding to know who any of you are, but I get railed for using a screen name. doh? I don't care who any of you are. It's fun to try to show those that aren't fully or correctly informed a little more information, and hope they will go the right way. But unfortunately, many or most homo sapiens are still pack animals that do not use the large brain they have. They default to the comfort of a pack. Someone new shows up on a board and those that have been around for a while have to show who is the biggest narcissist. If someone wants to have a battle of wits but they are unarmed, that's not my problem. They did it to themselves.

Look, 2+3=5. I will attempt to show those that think 2+3 is something other than 5 the correct answer. Those that think 2+3 is not 5 can not convince me that 2+3 is anything other than 5, and because I refuse to go along doesn't mean I am a bully, etc. I don't go along to get along.

"I can teach, but I can't make them understand" - unknown

Of course, make sure you are right and you really know what you are talking about, that usually helps. Before you call someone a snob, bully, self-righteous, disagreeable, confrontational, one-sided, etc., stop and take a long look in a mirror, and ask if you would be demonstrating that you are an audacious hypocrite.

Someone asked Bill Cosby (a successful and well educated guy) about how to be successful. He answered that he could not tell them how to be successful. But he could tell them how to be unsuccessful, and that is to try to be all things to all people all the time. Some people are never going to get it, and I'm okay with that.

Can't wait to see how that SPEC motor does at Loudon this weekend!!!!

Cherish these last three Modified Tour races.

Respectfully,

Acadia, from where it doesn't matter

JE711618
09-20-2012, 06:02 PM
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. - Robert A. Heinlein


I know how that feels.


The thing is, this social media should be enabling people to discuss issues with the anonymity that insulates the discussion from race, creed, religion, where you live, hair color, teeth or no teeth, trade, education, number of chromosomes, Mac or PC, iPhone or Android, expertise, freckles, eye color, breeding, lineage, unibrow, yadayadayada...

I'm not demanding to know who any of you are, but I get railed for using a screen name. doh? I don't care who any of you are. It's fun to try to show those that aren't fully or correctly informed a little more information, and hope they will go the right way. But unfortunately, many or most homo sapiens are still pack animals that do not use the large brain they have. They default to the comfort of a pack. Someone new shows up on a board and those that have been around for a while have to show who is the biggest narcissist. If someone wants to have a battle of wits but they are unarmed, that's not my problem. They did it to themselves.

Now I know what you sound like, Acadia... One of the many hate group or cult recruiters that refuse to admit being wrong in anyway possible because you bathe yourself in self righteousness and believe so strongly in what you are saying that you are unable or unwilling to truly listen, consider, or respect others opinions. It makes you unable to even have an "agree to disagree" debate. Before you spew any more nonsense you might want to remove your head from your hind end.

Rob29
09-20-2012, 06:16 PM
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. - Robert A. Heinlein


I know how that feels.


The thing is, this social media should be enabling people to discuss issues with the anonymity that insulates the discussion from race, creed, religion, where you live, hair color, teeth or no teeth, trade, education, number of chromosomes, Mac or PC, iPhone or Android, expertise, freckles, eye color, breeding, lineage, unibrow, yadayadayada...

I'm not demanding to know who any of you are, but I get railed for using a screen name. doh? I don't care who any of you are. It's fun to try to show those that aren't fully or correctly informed a little more information, and hope they will go the right way. But unfortunately, many or most homo sapiens are still pack animals that do not use the large brain they have. They default to the comfort of a pack. Someone new shows up on a board and those that have been around for a while have to show who is the biggest narcissist. If someone wants to have a battle of wits but they are unarmed, that's not my problem. They did it to themselves.

Look, 2+3=5. I will attempt to show those that think 2+3 is something other than 5 the correct answer. Those that think 2+3 is not 5 can not convince me that 2+3 is anything other than 5, and because I refuse to go along doesn't mean I am a bully, etc. I don't go along to get along.

"I can teach, but I can't make them understand" - unknown

Of course, make sure you are right and you really know what you are talking about, that usually helps. Before you call someone a snob, bully, self-righteous, disagreeable, confrontational, one-sided, etc., stop and take a long look in a mirror, and ask if you would be demonstrating that you are an audacious hypocrite.

Someone asked Bill Cosby (a successful and well educated guy) about how to be successful. He answered that he could not tell them how to be successful. But he could tell them how to be unsuccessful, and that is to try to be all things to all people all the time. Some people are never going to get it, and I'm okay with that.

Can't wait to see how that SPEC motor does at Loudon this weekend!!!!

Cherish these last three Modified Tour races.

Respectfully,

Acadia, from where it doesn't matter

You keep saying this. What's your point here?

Gil
09-21-2012, 03:04 AM
Sid and the Gleason brothers do quality work at the Waterford Speedbowl! Check out some of their other videos.

Magicshoes12
09-21-2012, 07:48 AM
Anyone have an answer or a thought to an Official Decision that I commented on Page 1?? LOL

This is the part that really frustrates me. Riverhead and Monadnock are billed at 200's. Now the last two seasons Monadnock didn't have enough cars to do the 25 lap heat race and it was tossed out. This year Riverhead doesn't have enough cars for the heat raced so it was tossed. The difference....At Riverhead they add the 25 laps to the race and Monadnock they don't! How is that right?

I personally think it was great for the Riverhead fans to see the 200 Laps (I did not attend). But I went to Monadnock and now feel like I got hosed there. Now maybe the extra 25 wouldn't have changed the outcome to the Monadnock Race, but it is a stinger as a fan to see that the race I went to was suppose to have a 25 lap heat that was tossed and not added, but later in the season they have a 25 lap heat race that is toss and then added to the feature.

It reminds me of the commercials of whatever bank where it has the kid who is sitting there on the rug (current customer) and a new kid (new customer) comes in and gets a free ice cream while the other kid is left there not able to have anything because he isn't a new customer. Haha.

Anyways I hope this actually gets talked about and not some ranting back and forth. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

JE711618
09-21-2012, 08:55 AM
Anyone have an answer or a thought to an Official Decision that I commented on Page 1?? LOL

This is the part that really frustrates me. Riverhead and Monadnock are billed at 200's. Now the last two seasons Monadnock didn't have enough cars to do the 25 lap heat race and it was tossed out. This year Riverhead doesn't have enough cars for the heat raced so it was tossed. The difference....At Riverhead they add the 25 laps to the race and Monadnock they don't! How is that right?

I personally think it was great for the Riverhead fans to see the 200 Laps (I did not attend). But I went to Monadnock and now feel like I got hosed there. Now maybe the extra 25 wouldn't have changed the outcome to the Monadnock Race, but it is a stinger as a fan to see that the race I went to was suppose to have a 25 lap heat that was tossed and not added, but later in the season they have a 25 lap heat race that is toss and then added to the feature.

It reminds me of the commercials of whatever bank where it has the kid who is sitting there on the rug (current customer) and a new kid (new customer) comes in and gets a free ice cream while the other kid is left there not able to have anything because he isn't a new customer. Haha.

Anyways I hope this actually gets talked about and not some ranting back and forth. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I agree. If it's billed as 200 laps, then 200 laps is what should be run. Adding the 25 laps to the feature at Riverhead was the right call. I am unsure why they didn't run the MadDog races at 200, when the 25 lap consi wasn't needed. Maybe someone else can fill everyone in as to why they were not full 200's.

JWfor8x
09-21-2012, 11:49 AM
Anyone have an answer or a thought to an Official Decision that I commented on Page 1?? LOL

This is the part that really frustrates me. Riverhead and Monadnock are billed at 200's. Now the last two seasons Monadnock didn't have enough cars to do the 25 lap heat race and it was tossed out. This year Riverhead doesn't have enough cars for the heat raced so it was tossed. The difference....At Riverhead they add the 25 laps to the race and Monadnock they don't! How is that right?

I personally think it was great for the Riverhead fans to see the 200 Laps (I did not attend). But I went to Monadnock and now feel like I got hosed there. Now maybe the extra 25 wouldn't have changed the outcome to the Monadnock Race, but it is a stinger as a fan to see that the race I went to was suppose to have a 25 lap heat that was tossed and not added, but later in the season they have a 25 lap heat race that is toss and then added to the feature.

It reminds me of the commercials of whatever bank where it has the kid who is sitting there on the rug (current customer) and a new kid (new customer) comes in and gets a free ice cream while the other kid is left there not able to have anything because he isn't a new customer. Haha.

Anyways I hope this actually gets talked about and not some ranting back and forth. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

From what I read, at Riverhead, the Cromarties went to Chad Little and asked if the race could be extended to 200 laps. I agree with you, you paid for 200 laps of racing and you should have gotten it.

Acadia
09-21-2012, 09:36 PM
And here's one of the messages I got:

"I like your postings and give credit because you stand up to big wigs here. I,m too chicken and mostly lay low but get a kick reading what you say."

There's more like that too.

;)




"That Acadia guys a nut"
That's a text I got yesterday from someone that fits your 'special' category of importance...
How's that!!!!

RGeeProductions
09-22-2012, 12:48 AM
And here's one of the messages I got:

"I like your postings and give credit because you stand up to big wigs here. I,m too chicken and mostly lay low but get a kick reading what you say."

There's more like that too.

;)

Was this from Masse or maybe Bonsignore?
If not, according to you, it means nothing,
What about the open member posts made about you here?
Oh yeah... closed eyes....