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spier racing 93
11-26-2005, 11:22 AM
Billy, I think you should think about allowing a "hoop" on the front bumper to protect the radiator. It would keep more people in the race and it would at least slow the damage process which would stop antifreeze/coolant spills on the track. Just something to think about.

nobandwagonhere
11-26-2005, 01:22 PM
Very good idea but my only quam with that is that it would benefit more as being a plow for those who like to go out and hit everything in their path as we saw in the last race. Im all for protecting my car, believe me. But I just think some of these guys would take that idea and run with it. Just an extra "grey area". :wave:

spier racing 93
11-26-2005, 02:14 PM
Yeah, that is very true. I started thinking about that after I had posted. But if you intentionally use it at a plow, couldn't it be considered "rough riding"? :confused:

JCenduro
11-26-2005, 03:12 PM
Ty great idea,The best idea probably would be to allow a brace behind radiator support with one upright per side,connected to frame.This way you would have the support of the radiator to withstand some more brutal punishing. :help:

Rich Johnson
11-26-2005, 04:49 PM
If the modification was limited to two uprights and one bar across, with no other triangluation, this would NOT create a "battering ram"... It would save some radiators, keep people in the race and most likely keep the track a little dryer.
I feel placing bars around the fuel cell is even more important...This is allowed (at Mountain)... At the Mutha, I was hit in the back a few times.
The bar I had behind the cell is bent now...If this protection was not there, I might not be typing this.

RACINRICH

JCenduro
11-26-2005, 05:07 PM
Trying to put my car together ,but can't do anything till I see what the rule changes are.Any inside info on rules for 2006.I heard a few things,I would just like to know what to do for my car.Any help would be great.Thanks

spier racing 93
11-26-2005, 05:39 PM
2006 rules (along with the schedule) will be out sometime in December according to the NEETS website.

woot lawrence
11-26-2005, 10:30 PM
This is an enduro series, the cars are suposed to be stock. I feel that if you let people put bars up front they will build unstopable tanks and someone is gona get hurt. The drivers need to pay attention to whats going on in front of them. I went through the whole 2005 season and only lost 1 radiator, and all that I spilled was water because that is all we are suposed to have. We don't need any bars up front, we just need to pay a little better attention.

nobandwagonhere
11-26-2005, 10:44 PM
Atta boy Woot! :wave: Yea I just think having bars or a cage for a radiator is too much. Believe it or not, there are ways too reinforce your radiator support without building extra support bars. If you read the rules thoroughly, just a little thought and homework is all it will take to make your car a little tougher and perfectly legal. The more bars and cages we put in the more we take away from our division. :wave:

spier racing 93
11-26-2005, 11:57 PM
I totally agree with you on the paying attention part Woot. Seems like only a few people watch for the red flag/lights. Always gotta worry about getting run over from behind.

winky417
11-27-2005, 10:33 AM
Right On Woot !!!!! we don't need no stinking extra rad supports !!! Just more drivers with common sense. We race enduro's (which means to endure) not go out there and hit every car you can!!!!! if ya want to do that go run DEMO derbies!!!!!! A more important issue is SAFETY!!!!! Like Rich said, he got plowed when stopped for a red flag. I think FUEL CELLS should be MANDATORY !!!!!!!!! theres way to many cars out there with stock tanks !!!!!!! thats an explosion waiting to happen. Remember the idea of our series is to be STOCK with SAFETY as the #1 concern ! :applause: Maybe a rule like this would work??? AND be inforced!!!! If stock tank is located behind rear wheels it Must be removed and fuel cell installed centered in trunk as far forward as possible.. 2.. if stock tank is located under center section of car, a metal shield must be installed under tank and be securely fastened to floor of car. Think about it everyone, it makes sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!----Maddawg417-12

Sac-Man
11-27-2005, 12:26 PM
I agree with keeping everything stock and no extra support bars in the front of the car. At the MUTHA I saw cars with ľĒ angle iron welded between the front bumper supports. 1Ē rerod welded behind the fender sheet metal and hoops welded on top of the front bumper to protect the radiator. I also saw a car with a plate metal fabricated front bumper. :mad: I asked a NEETS official if these were legal and he said I could make a visual protest to the tech guy. I donít want to be a whistle blower. :eek: These infractions are blatant and in plain sight. These cars should not be permitted on the track. As more drivers see others with this reinforcement out on the track they will think it is acceptable and do it themselves. I donít think the argument that they will just be DQíed is good enough. Who wants to fall victim to an accident with an illegally reinforced car? There was at least one crew that had cutting torches at the track. Make these illegal cars cut the bars out and send a clear message that this is wrong.
For the record I use the stock fuel tank which is located forward of the rear wheels in my car. I have no problem and support extra bars protecting the fuel tank, driver and passenger doors. An anti-submarine bar welded to the rear bumper. I also support use of fuel cells and the 6-gallon marine style plastic tank provided they are inspected and truly securely mounted.
I love the enduro class and want to keep it just thatÖ :applause:

John Saccomandi
#6

spier racing 93
11-27-2005, 01:39 PM
What ever happened to having inspections before the cars hit the track? :confused: :confused:

NEETS-1
11-27-2005, 05:11 PM
Would you like to help out and do it Mr. Spier?...How 'bout racin' more and complaining less :lol:

spier racing 93
11-27-2005, 05:17 PM
I just think if there are going to be rules and a tech man, they should be enforced. :mad: Its obvious that people have illegal cars and arent getting DQ'ed. :disgusted

enduro13x
11-27-2005, 05:52 PM
Personally, i think that the radiator problem isnt because of no support, its driver error. ive seen more accidents caused by nobody stopping when the red is thrown than actual accidents caused during green flag conditions. i feel that if people would pay better attention to the lights, there would be less carnage and many less blown radiators, no extra supports necessary!

enduro13x
11-27-2005, 05:56 PM
i do agree with spier though and i do believe that there are illegal cars that are finishing well and not getting dq'd. i think that the people who dont have that much money shouldn't get beat up on by these people with illegal cars and something has to be done about it

richardpetey
11-27-2005, 06:22 PM
I've said it once , I'll say it again, if we all raced yellow yugo's the same 15 to 20 people would still finish up front.................... :rolleyes:
Sure there are drivers/cars out there not following the rules as they are written, but what comes around goes around..................... :help:
This is the first year NEETS has had bonestock rules in effect, I'm sure once Craig and Billy have a meeting about the new rules and enforcement the problem will be rectifed.......................... :cool:
Many good cars have been destroyed in NEETS contests this year because of pilot error.............Remember you can't win the race in the first lap, hehe.................. :eek:
The new season starts soon...lets start it out on a good foot and have fun................ :applause:
UNCLE PETEY....................... :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

enduro13x
11-27-2005, 06:58 PM
im with you petey, we should definitely start this season on a clean slate and forget about all the bad things that happened this past year, i know that billy and craig have it under control and will definitely do a good job to make it as fair as possible

you wouldnt be including yourself in the good cars being wrecked part would you? lol

CIN
11-27-2005, 07:26 PM
People who finish in paying positions ARE getting DQ'ed. There have been illegal cars running that have not finished in the money. I can see that Billy does not want to turn away too many people while the series is growing. I have seen people return with legal cars once they see what is going on at our races...If you are a competitor, you can make a visual protest. If you are supporters, you could volunteer to help Craig Pre-inspect cars... This would only take a few hours... Any takers ?

RACINRICH

JCenduro
11-27-2005, 09:12 PM
I just had this memory back when flemington ran enduros,The man in charge there Joe Hall,would have a drivers meeting and would ask everyone if they had a copy of the rules at the meeting.All the drivers of course would say yes,except Felix,and speedo.Go figure.LOL.Joe would always tell the drivers he didn't care what you ran on the track.All he said was that you know what you have in your cars and you know if you come in the top 5 0r ten depending on the #of cars there were to pay,If you come into money positions he didn't want to hear it if they found you were not legal.This system worked well because no matter what the rules are Drivers will build there cars the same regardless of the rules.It bites you when you do have a good run and you have to worry if there going to find this or find that.The Track should hand out rules every race at the gate to make sure all race teams have a copy.There would be no excuse then to say why your car isn't to the rules.All drivers should make sure there car is built to the rules and not wait for the day in the Tech area and say,YOU NEVER SAID ANYTHING BEFORE.The Track will never be able to check every single car on any given day.Rules are just that.If they are enforsed,Then let them run what they want,They want to have fun too,but when they have a good day,and something major is not to the rules,Then maybe next time they'll fix it because they got DQ,ED. :applause:

WEEZER
11-27-2005, 09:24 PM
With the mutha being my first neets race, I built a car strictly to the rules so that I won't have to travel 3 hrs and be told I could'nt run or had to change whatever to run because it was illegal, but upon walking around the pits sat/sun and seeing some of the cars with lowered suspencions, roll bar hoops on the front bumpers etc, I only wished I'd done the same, so be it, like many other racers I think cars should be more observent to the red flag/lights, maybe a flagger in the 3rd/4th turn would be helpful???, but what really blew me away was all the value towing race cars with the 5" vee shaped nerf bars on the drivers side that had "tire cutter" written all over it, THAT should'nt have been aloud on the track period. All in all it was a great first time.

CIN
11-27-2005, 10:25 PM
Personally, I don't think that NEETS should have to make copies of the rules to hand out at the gate. They post the rules on their website, which you can download and make your own copy of. Also, I am sure that Billy would be more than willing to mail you a copy if you don't have access to a printer.
The biggest thing is by the time you get to the gate you should have your car race "rule" ready.
And not every accident/wreck is caused by the red. Just ask Uncle Petey...they came at him like he had magnets on that car. Also like Petey said, you can't win the race on the first lap...it was supposed to be 300 laps and most were driving like the first lap was the 299 lap.
As to safety, after seeing my husbands car...thank God he had that bar across the rear and a fuel cell.
As to a flagman (person) in turn 3, well someone should step up and volunteer to help out. Also, help with tech.
Maybe next year Craig can get somemore help and cars could be teched before. One person say could be incharge of motors. And go from there. But with Craig being the only one that stepped up to help tech cars, how could he do it all himself.
All I'm saying is, this is a great series, and I think Billy and all the people that help him are trying their best to accomodate the vast majority of enduro racers. Instead of beating up on them let's maybe have just a thread on suggestions, and they can take them from there. But, some suggestions might mean stepping up to the plate and helping out.

Just my 5 cents.

Cin

rpkulik
11-27-2005, 10:59 PM
If they show up with a safe car, let them run. If the car is a hotrod it will get DQ'd. If the driver is an idiot, he'll get black-flagged (maybe). The more the merrier. Let's not forget WHY drivers are showing up and what makes NEETS their choice. Sure, there are some bozo's out there, but what would an Enduro race be without them?

Bob K.
Bozo-in-Training

miller78
11-28-2005, 12:02 PM
ive ran 2 races with a car that i set to rule book and had a about 15 to 20th place car but i rather finsh there then cheat to get like a top 5 i mean when im racing i run my own race when people who are faster i move and give them the line that way i dont hold them and get knock out way and i stay where i am on the track and if i was faster i lke same back cause my dad stess to me watch in front of u and expect the red to come out at any time i havent plow anyone yet where going with this is if people would watch out in front they might save a rad or to we wouldnt be thinkin of useing bars but there going to be hot head and showoffs that the neg side of racing well marry christmas and a very happy new year see yall at beaters -aaron miller

rcp_ny
11-28-2005, 12:20 PM
In no particular order....

I've said this before, but what drew me into the series and keeps me in it is that the cars can be cheap and "disposable". My latest car cost me $328 on e-bay (probably more than everyone else pays because I don't know how to fix as much as everyone else), plus $40 to have someone weld in the door bar, plus $14 for an extra tire and rim from the junkyard, plus maybe $10 in paint... so I have less than $400 in it. I expect to not bring it home, and if it turns out it's not trashed (and it usually isn't), then that's a nice bonus. I also expect to win $0 in prizes. I wonder if lower purses (with lower entry fees) would take away people's incentive to be "inventive"? Or would folks still stretch things just for "the trophy"? I would at least feel less like I was lining other competitors' pockets to enjoy my hobby. Just a thought though; I don't have a big problem with that.

I would be against allowing radiator bars. It would add more cost for the novice, or put us at a big disadvantage. I would also be against mandatory fuel cells and roll bars (or even tank bars or whatever) for the same cost/disposability reason. Although I'll admit when the first serious injury happens it might make me change my tune.

The red lights do continue to be a problem. They just don't get your attention during daylight. It's a human factors problem. We drivers are always looking ahead to the left, and the lights are on the right. This puts the lights out in the periferal vision field, and periferal vision is best at detecting motion rather than color or brightness. That's why we see the red flags waving, but not the red lights. If the lights did something other than just shine it would help... if they blinked or had a strobe in them like new traffic lights, or if they spun like a rooftop emergency light, it might be noticed better. Maybe even a siren sound would help... I imagine everyone knew when that #50 police truck was near them!

I also notice during the mutha (during my spectating phase :) ) that part of the red flag problem is cars with apparently no front brakes. I'm sure it helped them get into the corners, but it also helped them pile into stopped cars. Not sure that anything can be done about that, or should be, but it was a factor.

I've had lots of times that I thought "that can't be legal", but I had a real reality check in that department at the mutha. Everyone remember the #19 small car? I was thinking (in fact I even said out loud to someone) "I wonder where the radiator is, because it sure couldn't have been in a stock location or that wouldn't still be running." Well after the race I saw it, and sure enough, there it was in the stock location... smushed back at about a 45 degree angle, but apparently still working! So I learned a lesson there assuming something based on visual observation from a distance.

JCenduro
11-28-2005, 06:13 PM
Well Said Cin,Thats all I can say.

BlingxBling
11-28-2005, 06:38 PM
I won't chew your *** out like you did mine because I don't see to your opinions, you can just see to your private message cindy, it will arrive shortly! :mad:

winky417
11-28-2005, 07:21 PM
Right On Cin !!!!!!!!!!! Racing And Enduro's Are A Hobby, But Safety And Our Families Are Our Lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maddawg 417-12.....

NEETS-1
11-28-2005, 10:10 PM
First off....NO to front bars of any kind. This is supposed to be a series where your car should be cheap and radiators expendable. Get another for the next race for 10 or 20 bux.
My reasoning is it will keep you on your toes protecting your front end. A bar will give (some drivers) a feeling of invincibility and will maybe use the front end more. Bars in the back to protect the gas tank or cell....I will not argue safety as long as it is not built as to be used as weight.
The biggest problem our events have are the red flags rear end shots coming out of turn 4. In an effort to cure this problem I am going to place a truck between 3 and 4 with a fire police beacon on it with a flagger inside. I will call him on the radio to turn on the lights.....which in turn will save radiators. This vehicle will also have a siren so if for some reason you do not see the lights flashing....you may hear the siren.
Another solution may be to keep the third brake light in the back window shelf or install one for those cars that do not have one. This can be tried and if it does not work....snip the wire.
As far as the big motors go....I am not a dummy, I have seen and heard them. I have allowed some of them to run knowing that if they go through tech, they will be dqed. This will stop. I will have a series for these people if they want to run big motors....Monster Cars.
I am going to install a vacuum rule to thwart these people from the stock class. It will be in the range of 17" of vacuum @ 1000 rpm. Most stock motors are around 18-22". Very easy to check. There will be NO % ALLOWANCE.....if you are under 17"...you are illegal. A vacuum test will be done to all cars in the money after the event.
The 2006 series will also see PERMANENT CAR NUMBERS. I went nutz doing the points figuring who was who...in what car. I got all of them right but it took me twice as long as it should of.
Another problem was the carnage with races that had over 70,80,90 cars in them. When a race had 60 cars or less...it was great racing. Any more than that....it took the fun out. I am going to split the fields into an "A" and "B" class for each division if there is more than 60 or 70 cars in it. Our series is growing fast and I foresee many more cars joining us this year. We had over 400 different drivers register and drive in our events this year, (What other series can say that)? I am not sure if I will just split it down the middle or figure a way to place the veterans in one class and rookies in another.
All of these ( and more not mentioned) are my ideas on how to improve an already great series. I am going to have a meeting with my veterans that have been with me since "day 1" after the banquet. We will exchange our ideas and I will post the rule changes I think will better our racing.

rcp_ny
11-29-2005, 01:25 PM
Billy, to me that all sounds very reasonable.

One suggestion on a way to split the fields when they are too big: split them into prize-money and trophy-only fields, and make us choose which one when we sign in in the tower. I would think that would naturally separate those with know-how from us speedbumps. :) The only drawbacks I could see are (1) not splitting the fields evenly, but that might be ok, and (2) you'd have to decide to split the fields before actually seeing how many cars showed up. You could always start by assuming a split field, but have us draw cards from just one deck. Then you could re-lump us if too few showed up.

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving... I know I added about 10 pounds of left side weight. :eek:

spier racing 93
11-29-2005, 02:59 PM
In regards to splitting the field, a fellow enduro series, the Midwest Enduro Tour Series (Website (http://www.midwestenduro.com/pages/home.html) ), splits the field into 3 divisions each race. Section 1 is for drivers with 3+ wins. Part 2 is for drivers with limited experence. Part 3 is for rookies.

miller78
11-29-2005, 05:33 PM
i dont think we should spit the cars up at all when your fast in a 70,80,90 car race you just got to show more leway with the lap cars and ant enduros ment to be a lot of cars in a race ,less cars puts less driveing out of it and more on what your cars got and at that point we might as well run thillers

NEETS-1
11-29-2005, 05:53 PM
Ty, I am very familiar with the Midwest Stock car series....I have talked to the promoter many times. One thing you forgot to mention was they still all run together whether they be rookies or veterans which is not splitting the field...only splitting the purse to your status. Last time I heard from a few of their members, they are in trouble, losing tracks, car counts down and may be no more pretty soon, if not already, so why would I copy a dying series?
Miller...I never seen a Thriller race starting 3 wide with 30,40,50 cars in it with no yellows....(not the same). I am looking at a safety issue and how to save your equipment. Sure, I am for pleasing the fans..there will still be some incedents...but I just don't want anyone hurt.
I am not going to wait until someone gets hurt to change our procedures. I have a normal insight and can tell you with true honesty, I believe that if our events continue to have 70-90 cars...something bad will happen. I am going to cure it before it happens.

CIN
11-29-2005, 06:43 PM
Billy,
Split it right down the middle, that way there is a little bit of every different type of driver. And if you need any help on race day...I'm here to volunteer...will be there the whole season...kids are older and two of them drive now (god help us). :help:
See you at the banquet. :wave:
Cin

ray fitzgerald
11-29-2005, 07:06 PM
leave it just the way it is. if you want to run with 20 cars go race a thriller car or blunderbust.i'd rather run with a 100 cars anyday this is why its called ENDURO racing. If theres to many crashes , to bad learn how to drive and take it easy the first half of the race. IT also takes to long to do a small car and big car race during the day if we start splitting the divisions up we'll be there all night then have a 3hr. ride home.Besides running the GAUNTLET is half the fun.If you can think of a way to make it safer where all behind you billy.

richardpetey
11-29-2005, 08:04 PM
Just cause you got a map of the mine field and we don't, lol .................. :help:
Everybody wants to race the enduros fast but you gotta last to be fast....................... :eek:
So boys and girls, drop those purses and get some seat time.................... :cool:
Stop talking about the R thing, it makes me crazy, hehe.................... :D
UNCLE PETEY.......................... :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

enduro13x
11-29-2005, 08:33 PM
i dont think that the field should be split because personally, i think it makes the racing more fun. im also in full support of the permanent number idea because that way, a driver wouldnt have to worry about their number being taken each race. another idea that another driver and myself thought of would be to split the points up better. both of us felt that it isnt fair to a driver who beats up their car and finishes 11th to get the same amount of points as someone who goes out at lap 10. this is just an idea, i realize that the points are already hard to figure out but i think this would help to spread out the points standings a little bit

NJ Chick
11-30-2005, 10:50 PM
Not sure about splitting the fields. Laps would have to be cut because now you have four races instead of two. I already hear complaints from friends and family about how long everything takes from line-ups, the red flag conditions and between races. I don't think the fans will appreciate having to sit through all of that four times. :eek:

Since safety is the biggest concern, here are a couple of suggestions I'm throwing out there:
1. Have a mandatory rookie orientation meeting for any new drivers before/after the regular driver's meeting.
2. Mandatory safety inspection of any new car that shows up in a designated tech area.
3. Rookies get a brightly colored ribbon to attach somewhere on their car to distinguish them from veteran drivers.
4. Billy said no big motors will be allowed from now on, that will cut speeds down.
5. Mandatory Fuel Cells: the money that you spend on one is worth the investment. It's better than being BBQ'ed on the track. If you wreck your car in a race, you take the fuel cell out and put it in the next car.
6. Roll cages of some kind should be mandatory. That's your butt in the seat, you only get one in life, protect it.
7. Window Nets, REAL window nets, not chicken wire or snow fencing. Again, you wreck the car, you can take the net out and put it in the next car.

I'm sure there are other things that could be done as well in regards to safety without compromising the spirit of true enduro racing.
:wave: :cool: :wave:

Mobigsly
12-01-2005, 08:24 PM
All I got to say is some of thoses side bars people fab up is a hazard. Some are hardly attached and others won't just cut your tires is will peal your car open like a can opener. I also thought I seen a car with a front or rear bumper attached to the side of the car when I was driving in, but I am hoping it was to eairly and I was seeing things.

miller78
12-02-2005, 01:11 PM
i use paper box post its smooth and flat to my car it does a job of a rub rail

Sac-Man
12-04-2005, 12:06 AM
I like all of your ideas in your earlier post Billy B. I do like the large volume of cars out there but I also liked it equally as well went the field shrank due to attrition. I would also like to say from my perspective in the car it seems that asking for volunteers to help with the line-up during the driving meeting really paid off. To me it seemed quicker getting out on the track and BRE deserves a tire smokiní burnout for that!!!! :applause:
I think people are eager to help out and I imagine if you ask people to just print out their own copy of the rules and bring them they would. Perhaps the idea of some volunteer tech helpers would also be effective. Not necessarily to turn anyone away but to just mention that something may be questionable and that they may want to make adjustments to ensure they donít loose a good finishing position to a DQ. :rolleyes:

Earlier I wanted to give some constructive criticism.
Lots of flames out there now and I just want to let you know I love the Series and think you are doing a great job. I canít wait for the Beaters!!! :applause:

Sac-Man
#6