To Move Cars or Not to Move Cars...

[NJ Chick]

That seems to be the question. Here is a thread that is on Big Diamond's forum board, you have to weed through some of it, but the main discussion is about removing dead cars from the track. There are 3 pages of posts so far. I thought I would bring it over to our forum for further evaluation as we'll be back at Grandview in October. What are your thoughts on this subject as a NEETS driver or fan? Please no bashing of anyone, just opinions/thoughts.

http://greenflag314.proboards28.com/...ay&thread=1108

[Erin C]

I am borderline on this subject...

1. This is an enduro, true enduros left cars on the track and even threw in some obstacles...it is an endurance race and should be raced as such. It is an accomplishment to say you won a race dodging cars left and right for 100 laps!! That is TRUE talent!

2. Economy is bad, parts/cars are getting expensive...if you wreck and stay on the track, chances are your car will get hit and you may not be in the financial position to have it ready for the next race

3. As a fan...it is SOOOO exciting watching the good, the bad, and the ugly (that's the soap opera name for dodging cars on the track!!)

I hate to see people struggle to get their cars back together, but you kind of have to expect the unexpected with a true enduro race...

[CJfilms]

To move or not to move...

If not to move...then you know the deal.

If to move...then let's block off the pits...now you HAVE to endure with what you have...

[Sac-Man]

How I see it. Unfortunately the Flemington days are over. The cars today are not built as durable. Unibodies are designed to fold up. The car counts are down increasing the speeds. I will run the races either style, removing cars or not. I do recognize it is more likely that I will total my car when dead cars are left on the track. I have had a car totaled when it died on the track. I would prefer the dead cars pulled from the racing groove. I don’t like yellow or caution flags. Grandview needs better signaling for red flags. I could only get to 35 MPH with the track- (Grandview) soaking wet. The wall at Grandview is really hard too. I want to run at Big Diamond and New Egypt and now that I’ve yanked out my windshield I will. I’ve heard complaints that the cheaters win when the dead cars are pulled from the track and I’ve heard complaints that people don’t want to total a car or get hurt hitting a dead car. So the major point is I like dead cars pulled from the racing groove, which is safer, and also due to the lack of a frame and crumple zones on these newer enduro cars, a sign of the times; and I like pitting. Now that scanners are being pushed at Mountain speedway I am using one and I like it. Complainers complain and the racers will do what is needed to race. I hear you already, I know there are still older full framed enduro cars out there but they are getting harder and harder to find. If we get to the point that we have 60 plus cars in a race then I would flip back to leave every dead car on the track; because the speeds would be down due to the congestion. I’ve been there and done it. I look forward to racing you soon…

[EnduroFromDE]

My first enduro was at flemington...as a spectator that is...i think i was like 7 or 8...but i remember they put rollers in each of the four corners before the enduro's started...I dont remember much from the enduro it self but i do remember the dead cars purposely put in the turns BEFORE the race started...Of course the first enduro I remember about the race it self was at Bridgeport in the mid 90's...It had 137 cars to start...all large cars...soaked the track down before the race...it was a stop and go start lined up 4 wide, from the start/finish line, around turn 4 and around turn three and almost into the back stretch...again the cars were left on the track...but top speed for most of the race was fairly slow until the cars started droping down...i do agree with John on this one...under 50 cars to start pull the dead cars out of the main line...over 50 to start...pitting under reds only and leave the cars be...I do like the idea of wetting the track but maybe not as much as last race...Also if anyone near delaware...maybe southern PA or Southern NJ has any spare cars lying around that maybe i can burrow for a race, a 4cyl if posible, please let me know...

[Lad3der]

Plain and simple CARS STAY ON THE TRACK! case closed

[gswracing]

the cars should be left on the track. its not hard to destroy a car either way.i don't think this should even be up for debate. enduro racing is what it is. if people are worried run every couple weeks a local track where they use yellow flags. just my opinion. steve sapp they are called mouse traps racer walsh, race engineering, johnson machine always have them in stock.

[EnduroFromDE]

cars on track...i guess thats the way it is goin to be...and Jeff...Johnson machines...?...if you have a few lying around maybe i could borrow one for an enduro race or two...or maybe get them Bridgeport legal and you and the rest of Fugly Racing come back racing with us...

[richardpetey]

I have raced enduros for so many years that I probably raced against Ben-Hur in the very first one, hehe..............................
I have seen the maturation of the sport go from 365 bonestock cars starting a race at Nazarath to the very first NEETS race at Mountain where half the cars were closer to factory stocks than true enduros.................
I have watched the personality of enduros change over the years mostly because the drivers wanted their favorite habit to look more like a real racing division rather than the 35 to 45 mph demo-derby into which it had evolved......................
This process among other things has slowly reduced the true enduro to a 100 lap feature.......................
I don't like dodging wrecked cars at 60 to 70mph anymore than the next driver but by the very definiton of the sport it is a challange of your ability to last, endure the carnage and be first to the checkers....................
If you continually strip enduro of its personality, it will slowly go away.............................
UNCLE PETEY...................

[CJfilms]

Very well said Petey...

Actually everyone too in that case! I liked what everyone had to say here...maybe pulling the cars with under 30 cars starting the race...??? Don't forget, the last thing we want to see is someone pulled from their car by an EMT. With 20 or so cars racing at high speeds, it is hard to see a single dead car left on a track while there is no other congestion to bring the speeds lower.

Obviously a wet track and even a packed track will naturally slow traffic down, but we all know it is everyone's intention to "GO FAST!!!" We have all witnessed one of the guys on the front line spinning out because he wanted to go fast and win the race on the Green Flag...

The biggest concern here is the racing on dirt is a little more dangerous... On asphalt, you have more grip to slow the car down in a hurry...if you don't mash the brakes that is...whereas on dirt, some of these first-timers on dirt are not prepared to deal with a sudden red flag or how to maneuver around a dead car in the groove without wrecking themselves or others.

I am all for the moving cars aspect, but the truth is...that is not enduro racing. I want this sport to continue to endure and grow into what it once was, but moving cars is not in that direction. As always I will not be the one to just hand down a decision. We (NEETS officials) will discuss the options described here and on other forums as well regarding this topic...but (for anyone reading this) once we make the final decision...it is FINAL!

If we decide they stay...they stay...period. ...Or as Matt would put it:
PERIOD!!!!

[310fig8]

I have run Enduros both ways. If I had my way I would go with removing the cars like they did at Big Diamond. However as Uncle Petey pointed out that was not pure Enduro rules. If the vote goes to leave the cars on the track, I would like to see it modified slightly. A car (driver or driverless) stopped crossways across the track simply takes up much too much room. My suggestion would be at least to move the car so its facing the same way that the traffic is flowing. Though Enduro does mean weaving and dodging, I would also like to see at least some racing room at all times. JMO
Bill Stockert 310

[NJ Chick]

Ok, less from the officials and more from the driver's! Come on you guys, let's hear it, for or against! I'm calling out Joe Jentile, Bobby Pease, John Cozza, Woot, Winky, Ryan Nelson, Dave Bentley, Mike Ventura, TJ Kapish, The Kulik's, Boom Boom, Cory Student, Aaron Miller, Pappy, Duane Eidem, Jeff Gregor, EVERYONE ELSE, I know you all have opinions, don't be shy now!

Thank you to those who have already posted their feelings on the subject.

[EnduroFromDE]

I guess I fall under "EVERYONE ELSE"...but I say leave um' where they die...the cars that is...

[Lad3der]

enough of the discussion. car stays on the track how it dies. if its in a bad spot a red will be thrown and get te driver/transponder out, but the car will stay exactly how it died. as always drivers are told to leave the car in neutral so that if it gets hit it will roll. so quit the twitching and suck it up, it's an enduro and lets not forget it.

so i am going to say that the final decision is cars stay. if that means so guys wont come back so be it. a few less drivers wont hurt what we are doing and you never know we might just gain some more in the process and those may even come back

[DEMotorsports]

Having raced many enduros from Nazareth, PA. to San Jose, Ca. I have seen everything from the water truck coming onto the track during the race, big pumpkins (actual) for Halloween and soaping the track, all to keep the speeds down. Enduro drivers are able to adapt to any track condition, rain, shine or slime. Mix into that messy concoction "dead cars" and that my friends is what makes enduro racing unique.
Now for the safety side of "dead cars". If they are left on the track than officials should ensure that the car is not in gear or park. Hitting a solid hunk of steel that does not move hurts the neck. Maybe a Hans devices is needed?
Here is something to think about and possibly doable. Some tracks have what they call a "pusher". That is a vehicle, sort of like a push truck, that is on the track only to push cars off to the infield or to the pits. All of this is done while the race is under green. It will only push cars if the driver is sitting in them to eliminate the use of a red flag. Otherwise if a driver abandons their car due to heavy damage the car will then stay on the track. I have seen this concept done and it keeps the red flags down and the race moving. There are many ways to utilize this concept for safety purposes only.
I trust the NEETS officials will make a sound decision on the "dead car" subject. They will keep safety in mind along with the spirit of enduro racing.
I never minded the dead cars on the track. It was always a challenge of paying attention and skill of dodging obstacles. Keep it fun and safe and I'll be there.
Duane