To Move Cars or Not to Move Cars...

[Sac-Man]

It has kind of evolved into a 100 lap feature. We need to mix it up and make it interesting. How about I buy 10 of those 5 gallon plastic buckets from the Home Depot and we fill them with water and put them around the track? I bet the fans get a kick out of it when someone hits one. It will make the track slick in that location for a few laps too. I’m thinking the consensus is to leave the dead cars on the track, which is fine with me. Maybe some of the Big Diamond guys don’t come but perhaps we make it fun and wild and we can draw in some new faces. I’ll do this for the small car race and hopefully someone will pitch in for the big car race.
I know I’m going to draw some flames for this idea but perhaps it will help or spur on an even better idea. I know we all want more cars, more challenge, bigger purses and trophies…

[Maddawg]

It's called ENDURO RACING for a reason!!!!!!!!!!! You need to Endure !!!!!!!!! whatever it is.
I Love this sport, 100 laps caution free, maybe a red flag, whatever!!!!!!! This is absolutely the purest form of racing out there !!
Lets Keep it Real !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maddawg 417=12

[richardpetey]

D E Motorsports may have posted the answer to our problem with his mention of a vehicle to push dead cars off the track during a race.....................
The mid-west enduros used it in many of their races, but they called it a "JAMMER TRUCK".........................
This "Jammer Truck" circled the track during the race to insure that no major jam- ups caused a bottleneck on the racing surface...............
The rules stated you could not hit the "Jammer truck" or you would be automatically DQ'ed....................
In reality the "Jammer" was just another slow vehicle you HAD TO AVOID, but its true value was in keeping the track clear of major debris and allowing green flag racing..............
This "Jammer" would still keep it a true enduro and satisfy some of the other enduro guys(BDR), (NES), etc. with regards to removal of dead cars...........
I hate to see the bickering amongst all the different enduro peeps, maybe this will help keep us all a big happy family..................
UNCLE PETEY.................

[J & J Racing 41]

Im not a big fan of long reds needed to clear/move cars, having said that the best way to keep the car count healthy is to have everyone or as many as possible take a running car home with them. If you got 100+ cars thats one thing but with 30 cars or so you start destroying them and you got 20/15 car fields - we been there- we dont want to go back. Its tough to get people to build cars to support your series so take care of the ones you got. I support the idea of at least keeping the groove clear .

[enduro438]

I have been in races where the dead were left on the track. It definitely adds to the excitement for the fans and keeps the drivers attention way up. The only thing I didnt like was when the groove would be blocked and you would have 30 cars piling into each other to get around a dead car. eventually someone would knock it out of the way but lots of radiators and tires would get destroyed in those bottlenecks. I think I like the idea of a big car or truck keeping "most" of the track clear and adding a slower rolling obstacle to avoid as it rolls through the center groove. I think it would have to follow the same line so as to avoid anyone feeling they are being intentionally blocked. If you catch it at a bad time, change your line.Car cant run a different line? oh well pass it in the next turn. I know how frustrating it is when you have a line on someone and cant complete the pass because of slower traffic, but thats the nature of an enduro. You want to run balls out the whole race, run with the factory stocks, or street stocks. this will add more to the drivers ability and make a "race car" a little bit less of an asset. i think it will help the give more drivers the opportunity to run with the faster cars. When you have 30-40 drivers with a chance at winning instead of 10-15 it will increase the car counts eventually because as we all did before we started, we look at the cars from the stands and think "I can do this". Sure it sucks having to load your car on the trailer with a fork lift, but we all know the risk of losing a car before we enter the track.

[CJfilms]

So....does anyone have a spare jammer?

I would consider this a strong potential for our series to increase the action on the track and keep the safety/percent of cars surviving higher. The only problem we have now is finding the truck...

Sac-man... like the bucket idea...only worried about bits of plastic getting ran into the surface...anyone have an idea other than a bucket to use here???

Joe Jentile...right you are and that is the reason for this discussion...Over 40 cars started the GranDuro and nearly half finished. If that were to mean that 20 cars were wrecked (and blown motors don't count...we didn't do that!) and not returning to racing this season, then we now have a 20 car field and reverted back to the 2007 season car counts.

I think the main issue here is keeping the groove clear, not moving cars completely but enough to provide a racing groove for ...most... racers to utilize safety. A Jammer truck would prevent a few reds from flying, so that is definitely an idea worth trying... I hate to see even one driver have to lose their car from either wreck or blown motor, but that is the spirit of the sport...and we cannot lose that spirit. Although, the flipside to that very statement is that 20 cars out there is nothing more than a train race with a long wait for the action.

We need to make this decision based on the car counts...start registering and we will decide what we are to ultimately do here by seeing how many people are going to race. 20-30 is a small field for an enduro...60+ let's go out and have some real fun, no reason to move 'em, wet spotts (like a soaked Kurt Spotts?) on the track will add to the excitement, and the Jammer will be working overtime!

Send in those registrations everyone...it's time to play!

[CJfilms]

Oh...I forgot...

Jammer to donate?

joe@neetsracing.com

[rpkulik]

Wow, someone actually ASKED for my opinion! Thanks, Cindy! I have lost my share of dead cars, but I actually like the concept. It is a pity that at certain venues a dead car is almost guaranteed to get demolished. But having hit dead cars myself (none recently), I understand how it happens. Petey hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned: the cars are changing, the rules are changing --- into plain old racing stuff! If things continue, there will be nothing to seperate Enduros from any other racing form. UGH!!!

That being said, cars are getting pretty difficult to come by. Although scrap prices have dropped recently, the damage is already done. At one time I had 5 G-bodies and didn't pay over $500 for any one of them. Now, IF you can find one, $800 looks like a bargain. And I'm down to my last car. Right now ANYTHING for $500 is a bargain.

I like the jammer truck idea. It seems to solve both problems.

As far as keeping speeds down: Excessive speed isn't a problem, it's an obligation!

[mystic1582]

Move the dead cars...The official Matt remarked that if they loose a few drivers each event because of it (leaving the dead players on the track) so be it...Do the math. Loosing one to five drivers a race because their car got demolished will add up fast if it has not already. everyone complains/worries about car counts dropping. Why add fuel to the fire. It is no longer "cheap" to run an enduro car given the cost to get to and from the track, the entry fee, the registration fee, the gas for the enduro car, tolls, tires replacement and maintenance parts etc. I think most guys out there spend too much time and money to see their race car; I mean enduro car get demolished beyond repair if it gets hit badly or destroyed from being left on the track. The other issue is speeds. The cars are traveling upwards of 75 mph at given points on the track. Someone will be hurt badly given enough time. I'm not so concerned about myself or another drivers capability to dodge a bullet. My concern is a driver intentionally or accidently stuffing someone into a dead car...This is a no win situation and sucks for both car if they get destroyed...and if you look at the liability if something goes really wrong you can pretty much count on the track becoming a housing tract if the teeth of a lawyer get involved. Steve Petry

[J & J Racing 41]

The next ? is who wants to drive a jammer truck trying to push a car in the middle of the track with a pack of cars going 75 mph flying up behind them? sounds like a good job for Matt lol . At least it would keep him from jumping in front of a pack of cars from the flagger stand.

[Lad3der]

steve
my comment was directed at drivers that wont race with use because the cars stay on the track. that is where i said that we will lose some drivers.

joe
you are right it is a job for me, but besides finding a driver for it here is another problem housing and getting to and from the track?

[richardpetey]

Lets get "SPEEDO" outa retirement and rent a local wrecker for him to cruise the frankenduro as our first "JAMMER" pilot.......................
The Lord only knows how many cars hes' wrecked in his career, now its time for him to clean up his mess, hehe.................
Don't worry Joe, after SPEEDO gets done cleaning cars off the track, he'll be the only one left................................
Thats right! He'll be the guy in the push truck going faster than us...................................
UNCLE PETEY...................

[EPAEnduros.Com]

Since we (BDR regulars) were invited to post, I figure I'll throw my two cents into this conversation on your message board so all of you can see for youself what I personally believe. First off, I mentioned this a number of times since July on the BDR board, "People have a choice where to run or not to run, nothing's mandating anybody to race at BDR, NES, Mountain or a NEETS show". Whatever the decision the NEETS officials come up with, it's their promotion and people have to either live with the decision or not race. Simple as that.

Now, let's discuss this topic of removing "dead cars". First of all please allow me to clarify one thing. The "dead cars" the BDR drivers are talking about (for the most part) are not ALL "dead cars" but only "dead cars" in the racing groove. We're not complaining about high side, or low side cars... the guys race with those everywhere else they run (not just BDR) so they're not in this equasion.

I have read all discussions (both boards) and understand where a grand majority of you are coming from. I will also admit, I'm a racing purest and desire for things to remain as close to the origional as feesably possible. Unfortunately though, the days where we can have 200+ cars entering an enduro for 200+ laps are over. Are you kidding me, I'd love to see every enduro be a 200 car 300 lap event... now THAT'S an enduro. These 100 lap races with 40 or so cars are nothing more then a Sunday afternoon features labeled "enduros". Now before you think I'm mocking what an enduro has become I'm not, I'm simply re-stating reality, others posting here before me have admitted the same thing.

The decision presented before you is a very difficult one but it's one almost necessary with the economy today, especially if you want to be paid at the end of the day. If you don't mind having 5 people paid with a top prize of $400 that's entirely up to you. I personally would love to have 7+ positions get paid with a top prize of over a grand and that's of course factoring in that Joe's a great salesperson and has the show completely sponsored. I mean why else race if you're not shooting for a prize?

You're all very intelligent and will come up with a conclusion which will be best for NEETS' future. I beg you to remember that you can't build a car these days for under $1000... most cases under $2000 and the more cars that are allowed to be potentially destroyed, the less cars you'll have available for you to race against, pay entry fees, support the prize funds, enable you to rent Grandview with pit passes etc, and cover costs of putting on a show along with various other expenses incurred by the promotion. This is the future of NEETS we're talking about. I'm 100% sure your promotion has been faced with worse times than these, but you have to admit, the less cars you draw, the tougher it is financially to run a show.

I conclude by saying that regardless of your decision, it's your decision to make and ultimately anybody who dislikes your decision doesn't have to run in your promotion. I personally feel moving cars out of the groove would be beneficial to your promotion but I'm not an official so I don't have to pay the price of the compromise... or benefit from the reward for that matter. I post simply to set the record straight that the BDR guys (for the most part) are not talking about removing ALL cars, simply the cars in the regular racing groove... and they don't even have to be removed... they can be moved out of the groove. I'm also here to explain the reason most BDR guys feel this way and clarify it has nothing to do with fear of anything on the track but fear of going broke and taking away from the lives of our families with the endless hours of repairing a car that was destroyed by the current, outdated standards.

Thank you for allowing me to speak, I trust your decision will be fair to NEETS, for the regular drivers who participate in NEETS shows, and everybody else who enjoys racing in this class of racing.

Jim Evans Jr. - Webmaster
EPA Enduros.Com
www.epaenduros.com
(570) 385-3205
webmaster@pageworkz.net

[Tracy57]

For what it's worth, I really like how BDR clears cars. And I think that clearing cars makes it a little easier for someone to get into enduro racing. I started doing enduros because it was low cost, low stress, racing with a fun, friendly bunch of people. It doesn't require being in the garage until 2am every night, or fighting about who did what to who after the race.

I think unneccessary car destruction by leaving them in the groove is just another barrier to entry into this sport at a time when we need more people interesed in LOCAL racing and enduro racing. Enduro is a good way to get out have some fun, full-contact racing without breaking the bank. If we want more people on the track a little less unneeded destruction wouldn't hurt. I think following the big diamond model works well.

I don't mind breaking a few parts, or straighting out a few parts now and then, I expect to, I want to, and I kind of enjoy looking thru the junkyard for a few parts here and there, but finding a replacement for a totalled car takes me out of too many races. It can take weeks.

The old beaters are taken off the road and crushed too soon - most of the cars in the junkyard are nicer than what I used to drive. The junkyards I used to go to with a can of gas and battery don't let you walk thru the yard looking for a car to drive home anymore. A lot of the junkers that were sitting on blocks in someone's back yard got scrapped. Unfortunately I am maxed out on my number of cars on my property now, so a good deal, and having the room rarely happen at the same time. (funny how the neighbors don't mind complaining about you until their car needs to be fixed, stuff needs to be welded, or they don't have heat and it's -10 outside - maybe I should tell them to go ask someone else next time)

We'll be at grandview either way (assuming no issues with the tow vehicle - which happens to be older and more dilapidated than the cars I tow with it), it just might change our ideas on which car to bring.
We're looking foreward to racing with all of you.

-Larry

[drewsent]

If someone can provide a good, well protected truck (heavy duty bumper and push bars both front and back), with a reasonable cage, racing seat and belts, (ready for this??) ---

I'll drive the Jammer Truck!!

If I can't, I'll bet I can find a few other folks who will. A second seat for a possible spotter might be useful, but not necessary, as well.

The bottom line on the Jammer Truck is that is had to be safe, and there should probably be a penalty for hitting the Jammer Truck.

I'm not sure the Jammer Truck would have to be out on the track for the whole race, but it could 'make a few rounds' when there are dead cars on the track. Not having the Jammer Truck on the track for every lap might cut down on the number of destroyed Jammer Trucks.

Eric Drews
Drews Enterprises

To borrow something from Field of Dreams -- Jammer Truck of Dreams -- you build it they (the drivers) will come.