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Thread: wall??

  1. #16

    nj safety

    i am a firm believer in safety! i'd rather spend a couple hundred bucks on safety equipment, then have a pile of hospital bills and be out of work because of an injury from racing. this is a fun sport, but dangerous as well. that's why i sold my quad. too dangerous. i can't just ride around without trying some crazy jump or blazing a trail at 60+ mph. i feel much safer with a full cage and a five point harness around me!!

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2002

    Exclamation Show Me The MONEY................

    I love racing Wall enduros but Joe and Erin have to make money to keep the series alive at a paved track..........................
    Wall keeps the money for the front and back gate, doesn't even truely advertise the show and only has to pay for the safety/fire crews...........
    NEETS promoters have to pay all the purses, all the officials and do the majority of the advertising..............
    Not to mention Wall doesn't cooperate with NEETS and try to arrange dates that don't conflict with other tracks enduros, so the car count will be large.....................
    I have seen some very large spectator crowds at some of the NEETS events at Wall, you would think somebodies making money even at $5 a pop...............
    As far as safety, RocknRoll and 4speed are right, if you can't afford to be safe you can't afford to RACE.................
    UNCLE PETEY..............

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    ok ok ill tell ya what , if a big if here , if race or two happens at the wall i will race and get the rest of dx to come too , so thats 3 more cars , and since we have to make improvements to the car for grandview we should be ok in jeresy , ill have josh check the cars for both , and then we will come race

  4. #19
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by richardpetey View Post
    As far as safety, RocknRoll and 4speed are right, if you can't afford to be safe you can't afford to RACE.................
    Hey Petey,

    You've been around the block a few times, do you think it's the upgrading of the safety components that's keeping the car counts down??? or is there more to it.....

    Your favorite track, Sundance, gets good car counts for their enduros..... and that's an asphalt track. Are those guys really against spending a few bucks to make their cars safer????

    I can see where some of the Dirt guys at Grandview might not want to change their set-up for asphalt, but why don't a decent handfull out of the 30+ car counts make the trek to Wall???

    I would think anyone who could get the chance would love to run the high banks of Wall, would make them feel like they were running a mini Bristol.

    .....and how about the cars at Bridgeport and New Egypt, aren't they "NJ Legal"?? How to we get them to "play" with NEETS at Wall???

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    I agree with the previous posts. Saftey first. Why cut corners? PA is more lax that NJ. But why put yourself in jeporty with the bare minimum of saftey equipment. Ask yourself, If I got hurt racing, how do the bills get paid? How do I take care of my family? Why not do it right first, and not have to worry about the minimal protection you have in your car. That cage/bars around you protect you, those extra bit of fireproof clothing buys you a few extra seconds to get out and sustain less injurys, Those belts keep you where you belong etc etc. I m not saying you cant get hurt, but at least lessen the chances of injury.
    Saftey equipment is cheap insurance, cause any other insurance usally dont cover racing sports. Why do you think the track is not liable and you sign on the dotted line upon entry. Its a risk you take to go racing in 2 tons of steel with wheels. my 2 cents.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2002

    Thumbs up Monetary Magnetism.............

    Put up the big bucks for a NEETS race and they will come..............
    We need a big time sponsor for the series that will help pay all the expenses and some of the purse.................
    Back in the day, never ran in a race for less than a grand to win, always with at least 100 cars entered................
    Lapdance used to have car counts of 60 to 80 when NEETS was there, lucky to get 25 cars now...................
    Last but not least, a serious shortage of cars exists because it costs much more to build an enduro than years ago................
    Many promoters don't give the enduros any RESPECT, they think we are a side show circus act, bang us at the back gate and treat us poorly, no wonder you have low car counts..............
    UNCLE PETEY....................

  7. #22
    about the new jersey rules ive ran demolition derbies in nj for about ten yrs now and they r alot safer now than back when i started it has become about driver safety and that is what racing should b about driver safety i like to know that im safe when racing than knowing that i could b hurt or killed because of a safety issue

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    I think it is more than safety issues.How many drivers only race at one track?
    They may chose not to race at other tracks due to budget,time, travel distance,help,interested in only dirt or asphalt,one race a month is enough.or only race at the local track. Face it the economy is not the greatest and that has to be affecting car counts.How many of our drivers already race at 2 tracks? With Big D,Grandview,Mountain,New Egypt all giving us options we can pick and choose where to race.The best option will draw the most cars.
    I am spending my money to race on dirt. phil

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2002

    Wink Dirt......hurts.............

    Time is money and ya can't make-up any time on DIRT.............
    Except guys like Mr. Philter, he's still runn'en MOONshine, hehe.............
    UNCLE PETEY...............

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Hold the phone here ....

    Set-ups on dirt will not cost to change anything to set-up for asphalt. Biggest thing is tires, and you could get asphalt tires for free out behind an STS, Goodyear Service Centers, gas stations, ect. All the years I have ran on asphalt with D.O.T. tires, I never bought a brand new tire, and never spent any money getting tires either. Take out swaybars for dirt, then put them back in for asphalt. Thats it. Not allowed to have lead wieght in the car so there is no change there. So set-up changes should not be preventing a Grandview or New Egypt Enduro from running at Wall.
    Petey says it cost allot more to build an Enduro car now than it did years ago. I dont beleive that. Bottom line is it does not cost very much at all to build an Enduro car. I am selling an 8cyl car right now that could be used for an Enduro for $2500. But that includes a very low milage GM crate 350, brand new carb, brand new fuel cell, brand new Kirkey racing seat, brand new 6 point roll cage, brand new brakes, rotors, wheel bearings, ball joints, tie rods, center link, idler arm, springs, shocks, new radiator, new trans cooler, new Flowmaster mufflers, rebuilt rear and more. I chose to install all of these new items, but you really dont have to. I have seen Enduro cars out there with brake systems, suspensions, engines, trans, ect with over 150,000 miles on them. So those drivers could not have spent much money to get their car on the track. They find an old pair of seat belts laying around in their buddies garage, an oil change, and maybe a tune up and thats it. They go racing with the car that bareley cost anything at all. Rock n Roll said seat belts for $100 - no way, could get brand new ones for $60. Rock n Roll asked if having to upgrade saftey components is what is keeping car counts down. I beleive yes it is, and its ridiculous. When I was at Grandview a few times this past year I asked some of the drivers why they are not racing at Wall and they said cost to much to meet NJ saftey rules, and to me that is a very lame excuse because we have already determined that it is only going to be the seatbelts and roll bar padding. The two NJ State Troopers that regulate racing in NJ are very good friends of mine, and one of them is my neighbor. I see and talk to him just about everyday. He comes over my house, and I go over his. After we get past Christmas I am going to talk with them about the roll bar padding rule and see if we could get Enduros exempt from that rule. Someone made a good point with the roll bar padding being fireproof, but the seats and dashboards are not.
    Wall Stadium did advertise every Enduro race that was held in 2009. I saw it on their website, and also saw it in the Area Auto Racing News.
    As far as the purse and Neets employees salaries, I thought they were all volunteers. Rick, Josh, Matt, Cindy and one or two others. Are they really being paid when there is talk about NEETS having financial problems. If I was not racing, I would work for NEETS as an official, and would not accept any pay. I would volunteer my one or two race days a month just to show my support of Enduro racing in NJ and PA.
    Do any of you know exactley where all the entry fee money went to? $50 per car to register right? Well Turkey Derby had 54 recorded entries = $2700 and August 22 race had 28 recorded entries = $1400. How many drivers were paid? Someone said it cost NEETS allot of money to run at Wall, but I am not understanding what NEETS is having to pay for that would put them into a hole.
    Regardless of all this, car counts are down and something needs to be done about it. Maybe cutting the cost of the registrations for each race and in turn lowering the purse will help. If a driver only has to pay $20 to enter instead of $50 then they would have an extra $30 to put towards their seat belts. I dont think it matters how much $$$ you are going to get if you win the race. Dont matter if its $150 to win or $500 to win. Drivers are still going to come race anyway. No one is in it for the money and you certainly are not going to profit from racing. I thought Value Towing was a NEETS sponsor at Wall. What are they paying for or contributing?
    I think Joe, Erin, Cindy, Rick, Josh, Matt are all great people, and I really appreciate the fantastic job they have done to keep Enduro racing alive. I have in the past and will always continue to support NEETS as much as I possibly can. Here are a few things that I am going to do right now that will hopefully help.
    1. I will talk to NJ State Police about lifting the SFI45 roll bar padding rule ONLY for Enduros
    2. I will make arrangements with my main sponsor Absolute Auto Salvage of Middlesex, NJ to provide whole cars at a very reasonable price to attract new people to build new cars.
    3. I have 10 pairs of 5 point harnesses that I would be willing to donate to anyone that needs a new pair. They are outdated, but you can send them to M+R in South Jersey to get them re webbed and re certified for about half the price of buying brand new ones.
    4. I could get asphalt tires around here in my area for anyone that is in need for some. Dont go buying any, because we could get them for free. But, as I mentioned above it is very easy to go to your local service centers or gas stations and pick through their pile of customer take offs. Most companies have to pay to get rid of the tires, so they are happy to let you take as many as you want.
    5. This is something that Joe and I have talked about already. I am going to donate all the trophies for the 2010 season at Grandview and Wall if Wall hosts Enduro racing again.

    If anyone within the NEETS organization, and all the NEETS drivers need any help with anything and/or would like to talk about any ideas they may have to help NEETS succeed at Wall, Grandview or just in general feel free to call me at 908-872-3990
    Lets all band together guys. Those few that race at Grandview and Wall need to try and convince more of the Grandview drivers to come race at Wall.

    Thank You,
    Vern McLaughlin III

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    This is the most interesting and positive post I've seen in a long time. I ran my first race ever at Wall in the TD Neets 8 cyl RWB and was looking forward to the 2010 race at wall on TD weekend. I have a riverhead grand and would only be allowed legally to run that race with neets. I'd have to make a lot of changes to run a regular neets race at wall or make changes to race with walls FS class, that's a lot to do for the regular family guys/gals. Mr Petey is so right about some tracks treating enduro's like 2nd class citizens, when almost everybody knows enduro cars a rarely like enduros cars of old, there more expensive to build mechanically for longevity and safety reasons and 8cyl cars are no longer a dime a dozen and yet at some tracks because of the economy enduro's draw bigger car counts then mods or lm's and yet some promoters can't see this?

    It would be amazing to have some tracks/promoters get on the same page and get uniformed rules like IMCA in the midwest. Could you image having a 8cyl enduro car to run Wall, Riverhead, Sundance and Grandview all in one year!!! Sounds like a money maker to me for the promoter.

    If Neets is back at wall in 2010 with a RWB race I'll be there with I'm sure more then the three Riverhead Grands that were there this past November.

    91 Grand
    Last edited by WEEZER; 12-25-2009 at 01:16 PM.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2009

    The Main Issues

    Here are some of the main issues that need to be addressed to get NEETS back to Wall. If everyone puts their "thinking caps" on, maybe together we can come up with solutions so the series can run at Wall in 2010!!!

    1) CAR COUNTS: Jim Morton wants a minimum of 12 cars in a division to race. Both the small cars and the Trux didn't field these totals for any of their races in 2009. Without at least 12 cars, Jim won't let the division race.

    So how do we get the car counts up for these divisions?????

    2) Jim wants to run the enduro races on Saturday nights when the regular show isn't running. The problem with this is the guys (and crew members) who normally race in the main divisions take their cars to other tracks when Wall isn't running. NEETS doesn't want to compete with racing series on other tracks on Saturday nights. NEETS would prefer to race on Sunday (when other tracks are off) and even combine a show with the Sunday Series. This would be a good cross promotion with both series.

    So, let's have a poll, what day would you prefer to race with NEETS, Saturday night or Sunday afternoon??

    3) I haven't seen the new Factory Stock rules for 2010 yet, put there is a possibility that with the changes to the F/S cars, they would not be legal for NEETS with the new modifications. This will hurt the car counts for the big car series, will will get us back to the problem in #1 above with the big cars too.

    If this happens, how do we get more true enduro big cars to Wall to make up for the short fall of losing the F/S cars?

    4) Vern had some good points in his post regarding the safety changes and the costs involved. He is right, that cannot be used for an excuse. He is also right about tires for asphalt. We also haven't paid a nickle for tires and we change them every race, they can be found for free in many places.

    But , I disagree with him regarding the promotion of the NEETS series by the Wall promoters. I think they did a really POOR job of advertising the enduro series. I have first hand experience talking with a lot of fans at two big events at the track when displaying our enduro car, and the majority of them had no idea that a enduro series was being run at the track. They only knew of the standard Saturday night shows. These were the regular race fans, not outsiders, and they were clueless!!!!

    A lot of us true racers check out the Wall web site, or AARN, the Wall Board or SJDR but the majority of the fans don't, so they have no clue that the NEETS series was taking place. The track didn't advertise the enduro series enough at the regular Saturday shows or even on the sign board on Route 34. So many people didn't know these enduro events were taking place. I heard that directly from more people than I could count!!! (side bar: I also think the sign board on Route 34 sucks, if you're not a racer, you have no idea what "Wall Stadium" is. Some people think it's a high school football stadium. That signboard needs better generic information on what Wall is about)

    Even with the Turkey Derby enduro on Sunday, the track changed the sign on Saturday that racing was over and "see you in 2010". I was sitting in line waiting to get into the pits on Sunday when a regular Saturday night fan drove in and asked what type of racing was going on this Sunday. He had no idea!!! And he was at the Turkey Derby on Friday and Saturday. This was another perfect example of being a "second class racing division" in the eyes of Wall promoters!!!

    So, how do we get the promotion needed to let all racing fans, the general public and other racers that NEETS enduro racing will take place at Wall?

    5) The Costs to build a enduro car: There are two sides to this discussion and being rather new, I don't have a big database to draw from, so in my experience, I don't think the costs to build a car are too high. I think the biggest hurdle is finding a used car at the right price that still has some miles left on it. Converting it to an enduro car by installing a hoop/cage, gutting the interior and installing belts and padding can be done for around $500. Obviously you need a friend with a welder and have to have some mechanical ability, but most of the enduro racers are usually involved in some other division, so these resources are available.

    I know that the economy now definitely isn't helping and this might be a factor also.

    So, how many believe the costs to obtain/build an enduro car is what is keeping racers away from Wall??

    6) So, I believe it's going to take a GROUP effort to get NEETS back to Wall and convince Jim Morton. CAR COUNTS is the BIGGEST issue!!!! If the car counts are up, the money will take car of itself.

    Let's have some feedback from this crowd.........

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Rock N Roll,

    Couple things regarding your post Rock,
    You hit the nail right on the head with the Factory Stocks. They will not be legal to run a NEETS race in 2010. They will be mandated to have Edelbrock Aluminum Intakes with Holley carbs both being sealed. I have spoken to Wall Tech officials many times in the last few months concerning these totally off the wall rules they have for the Factory Stocks with NEETS in my mind. One of their favorite things to say is that "these cars have to remain factory stock, and must remain affordable and cheap for the beginer to get involved. Then they act totally in the opposite direction when they make rule changes every year, and force racers to spend more money to buy things that are NOT STOCK! especially for the year, make, and model that most cars are. They make no sense with these Wall only rules resulting in not being able to race your car at any other track in any other event. The most sensable, logic fix to these rules which would greatly increase car counts for NEETS is to make Factory Stock rules the same as the NEETS Enduro rules which ARE FACTORY STOCK!

    The promotion and advertising of NEETS events can be increased by all of us racers. Not only could you help promote the event, but you would also be promoting the fact that you race there and will be entering in the event. Many, many ways to get the word out.

    The cost of building a car. I when I read Weezers post. He was right with being treated like 2nd class. The Factory Stocks @ Wall, and Outlaw Stocks at NES are treated the same in some ways. But when he said the cost of building an Enduro car these days are allot more expensive then in the old days I could 'nt really beleive that. Ok, back in 1985 you had no roll cage, therefor no padding, and let me guess, no 5 point harness. Running with some old dry rotted used up 1974 factory lap belt, no window net maybe, and wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Well now its 2010, but it really does not cost that much like you make it sound. Two years ago or so when scrap prices were up real high here by me I went to Wallmart and bought some poster board paper, made signs to pick up Junk cars, hung them on telephone polls and made a killing. Big$$$. There are still quite a few cars left out there, but it probley would be more difficult for someone to drive around to find them versus hanging up a sign with your phone number so that old man that has that 1985 Monte Carlo sitting out back along side of his barn can call you. Allot of times I would charge them like $50 to pick the car up so I was 50 ahead of the game right off the bat. Part out the car on Craigslist or Ebay (which I have done) and make even more money. You could get an easy $200 for the windsheild. You could get a car for free, and make enough money off of it to pay for the $240 roll cage, $60 harness, $60 roll bar padding (if its mandated), and $15 window net for a 4, 6, or 8 cyl car. The differences between NJ and PA. In conclusion, racing cost money. If you want to race stock cars of any division you better be employed and making a pay check every week. Yes, the cost of racing has gone up in the last decade, but so has every thing else in our lives.
    Again, here to help. Would like to see this topic continue, and anxious to hear some more opinions for more people.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post
    i have raced at wall in 2003 with neets and loved it at that time it was under neets rules both car and safety. the thing that keeps me from racing there again is all the money i will have spend to comply with the nj safety rules i have good stuff but its not good enough for wall. if you have a double layer suit you still need fireproof under ware ang so on thats why the car count was so low you cant blame neets for a low car count when the nj rules keep most people away merry christmas to all

    It cost me a total of $180 to conform to NJ rules....thats fireproof underwear (top and bottom) socks, padding and odds and ends. Borrowed a HANS. Wasnt too bad.
    How ya Like Me Now!
    55 R.I.P. Uncle David Oliver 55

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2004

    Hitting the Wall!

    Obviously, the desire to see NEETS continue to race at Wall is to answer the biggest question, "What is the problem?"....

    There are a few different views and ways to explain this, so my favorite of all things is about to happen.....numbered list!!!!

    1. 4speed hit the nail on the head....costs and safety. The problem is, which side of the fence you are on when this concern comes up. As a driver, we have discussed this issue in the past numerous times, safety does not equal cheap, we all know how most drivers feel about this topic and I'm not going to dictate or preach about your safety when the NJSP have the final say to what is legal and what is not. On my side of the fence, costs are a different story. Vern, you said it best that with all the money we are not making, how can we be paying all our officials? The answer...out of our pockets. I cannot ask officials to work for free and I can't cut their pay down to next to nothing just because I am losing money for something they can't control. Each race, I have to pay for officials, trophies and transponders (if the counts mandate it). So, for each race I need to clear at the least, $2,000 to justify bringing the NEETS show to the stage. We take 20% of registrations and that is all the money we see as 'profit' from our races...the money from transponder rentals is paid directly to the place WE rent from....we rent them for $20, we rent them out for $20...I could up my price, but people are already unhappy about paying $20....

    2. The biggest issue we faced in 2009 was our schedule was out own worst enemy.... Jim has given us several dates he would like to run the enduros this season, but it is the same problem. First off, Saturday nights...most of the enduro drivers are either dedicated to race elsewhere on Saturday nights or something else. Second, the conflicts...we were conflicting with so many other enduros this whole season we were guaranteed to have lower than normal car counts. We conflicted with numerous Riverhead enduros, and the Sundance championship race which we canceled our race so that drivers would not have to decide where to race. We have another Saturday night filled schedule for 2010, and we know that drivers dedicated elsewhere will remain racing elsewhere. As Melissa said it, all promoters should get together and come up with the schedules at once....this way, the speedway would understand why certain dates are not going to work and others will be better.

    3. Expenses...I don't mean NEETS series expenses I mean speedway expenses. Turning on the lights, advertising in AARN, both are big expenses that NEETS would typically avoid at all costs....however, if we are starting our event at 7PM, there is no way to avoid the lights. If we were not the headliner on a Saturday night, the biggest night of racing, there would be no need to advertise in the papers. Another expense that is a bit intangible and hardly understood....cooperation. If wall publicized NEETS is racing there and let us do the promotions, the word about the upcoming races being a NEETS race would not come as a surprise to so many fans and other drivers. There was not one post on the billboard that NEETS was racing there on any of our races. If I was any other promoter, that may have been the straw that would break the camel's back, however, it just left our sponsor disappointed and leery about returning. Without sponsors, we can't afford to do this again. Without promotions, we aren't even racing there in a certain sense. Wall did not run an enduro this season, NEETS did. But to John Q Public, would they know that from what they saw? Probably not. Another unnecessary expense is officials....not NEETS officials, but the regular Saturday night track workers. We run on a skeleton crew at best and our events run fairly smooth...but, when you have a ton of unneeded people expecting pay, that boosts the expense up even higher. The regulars are certainly needed on a regular basis, but if an outside series is coming in to run the show, they should have the night off and save the track the money.

    4. Cooperation... At Grandview, the owners open the gates and start ripping tickets....Kenny preps the track and sits back and enjoys the show. We run the show 100%....if we screw up and it looks bad, it is our fault. If the show goes well, they don't claim it to be because of what they did. Kenny has told me numerous times he believe we are doing a great job there and provides us with input here and there.... At Wall, we are handed a schedule, rain dates, press releases that hardly contain info about our own events, rules and such regarding the regular drivers, etc... It is hardly our show. We pay for officials, pay the purse, pay for scoring, pay for the awards. Most of the drivers there are the factory stock drivers and the track expects us to be lenient or stringent based on who is racing and what car they have. I cannot do that. If the driver is there in an enduro car, they are tech'd as an enduro car....not a factory stock.

    5. Car counts...limits and changes... First off, we were told that if a division has less than 12 cars, they shouldn't be permitted to race that night. That is simple if this is a weekly series, but for these drivers who come from 1 1/2 hours away and pay the same amount of money as everyone else are entitled to what they came for...track time. If we pulled the plug on these races, we would be running only a Big Car race which is full of factory stocks as is....why not just run a typical Saturday night program and make the money the track needs? I never want to step on anyone's toes and this goes for taking the place of another division. If the counts do not change as expected for 2010, we would be limited to run one race only. Secondly, the changes... NJSP troopers have told us that next season, NO FACTORY STOCKS will be permitted to run the enduros with the anticipated rule changes to the vehicles.....there goes the last remaining division. The speedway would lose BIG MONEY on each NEETS event and so would the series.

    I believe that at this time, there is no possible way to run the enduros at Wall with the way things are now. Jim and I need to come up with a good idea and a mutual deal. That is between Jim and I, and I believe that it should be left up to us and not on the forums. As always, I appreciate input, but I don't want to see people bashing series or speedway on here regarding decisions..... as it was stated already, Wall and NEETS, they are both businesses, they need to make money to survive. The difference between the two is what is tangible. Wall has speedway and land to lose. NEETS has only money. Wall needs to make money to pay the bills to keeep the series on the track. The series needs to make money to keep bringing cars to the track. Our expenses are much smaller and we deserve less of a cut of the pie, but we need to at least taste it or else we have to pull the plug as we have.

    Just last week, I put out over $11,000 for the annual awards banquet....purse, trophies, banquet, etc.... We lost a few thousand dollars running events at Wall this season. This is issue number 1 and I don't want to resort to making money off of my drivers by cutting the purse.

    We need sponsors....we need more cars...first and foremost, Jim and I need a game plan. We will discuss this at the Motorsports show and will have an answer shortly thereafter. Until then, the issue isn't going to change.
    ________Joe the Photo Guy
    Webmaster_____________Cell#: 267-767-4923
    Photographer ___________Nextel: 168*153450*1

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