Grand Enduro Scoring

[nobandwagonhere]

This is just my opinion, but Id like to put something out there to see what happens. Since the start of it, the Grands have evolved tremendously. There's $ invested just to compete....mainly tires, safety gear, cage, fuel cell. Not saying this is a bad thing, but it brings me to my point. It's basically a blunderbust without a weight rule. They should be treated as a division. So therefore, with so much at stake, why aren't they scored like a division? There's only what..20 cars? Maybe 25? There's no reason why the track isn't scoring them. I don't feel that with that much invested, these cars should be hand scored like a gut-and-go enduro. This past Memorial Day weekend, I finally ran a Grand Enduro. I have been wanting to for 2 years now and I was fortunate enough to have an incredible sponsor behind me this year (Flanders Automotive). I was the yellow/red # 58 car. Donny Oliver. I finished 5th. Or so I thought. Acording to the score cards, I finished 8th. I'm not here to throw anyone under the bus, BUT.....there are cars in the results that I passed, that were tangled up for at least 2 laps, that spun TWICE. Now I know on the track (from what I remember) I DID go a lap down by, I'm pretty sure anyway, the 20, the 59, and the 9. Now I'm not so much complaining, but I am disapointed that I couldnt bring my sponsors home a top 5 (which I know I did, but not officially). I was pretty impressed that I started 16th and got in the top 5. I just wanted to kick this out there to get some opinions of what other drivers think about this. I've voiced this when the division decided to run Hoosiers, but I didn't run, so I left it alone. I don't mind losing to another car because I love to race. Not bang off every other car, but RACE. I DO mind losing to a pencil. Like I said ...just wanted to see what ALL the other drivers thought.


Donny Oliver

[unowho243]

I agree Don. I wasn't lucky enough to catch your race, but that has happened a lot of others, from what I hear.

[vsmidge68]

I think perhaps in the Grands,(since there are so few in comparison to the other enduros) one way of checking the results would be to have one TRACK scorer write down the cars that pull into the infield or spin and the lap that it happens on. Now not everyone loses a whole lap when they spin but you know at least that on THAT lap they are not going to have the same time as the other laps. For example a normal lap might be 18 seconds, but a spin & go lap should be 21 or 22. Just an example!! Not trying to be specific!! I'm not trying to knock anyone or their scorers but I know for a fact that there was a little case of pencil !@#$%^& going on. If you read the full story, it says that Pease and Tommy W.(not even trying to spell it from memory) were the only cars on the lead lap. AGAIN not trying to take anything from anyone but how does that give him (Tommy) 3rd place?

[N.Y. racing]

I know nothing about the grands or much of anything for that matter. I just have a question about this, How does Mountain Speedway run the scoring for Enduros there??? Isnt it electronic you just register they give you something and you mount it in your car for the race?? Sounds like that would be a good plan for the Grands or all Enduros at Riverhead.

[good2go1963]

Mountain uses transponders, and yes, that would solve any issues, as long as the transponder is working properly. But unfortunately, they are rather expensive and it has been brought up before. I don't believe Riverhead is prepared to spend the money on them. Speaking as someone who has scored many years for a number of different drivers, and everything from enduros at Riverhead to Modifieds at Flemington, I'm sure there are scorers out there who intentionally "cheat", but the most important thing in being a good, honest scorer is to keep your eyes glued to the car you are scoring. It passes the clock you write the number in the box.

[vsmidge68]

Mountain does use the transponders and unfortunately they have had their share of problems with them in the enduros. They seem to work very well for the weekly racing though. But you are right, Riverhead is not going to spend the $$ on them. I guess nothing is foolproof. Anyone who has scored can tell you if you watch your own car (which is kind of the whole point) instead of just the clock it really isn't that hard to do.

[art11758]

A few points. The Grands, in all that they are, are still an attraction in the promoters eyes. So any changes that happen scoring wise will have to come from the office/management. So start writing your letters. Be careful what you ask for. What you get isn't always what you wanted. Scoring with a flopclock, paper and a pencil has been around since water. Creativity has been too. As long as your scorer has done their job correctly (which IMO is the most important job) the results should carry you. Make sure your scorer understands the importance of what they are doing and that the concentration involved is deceiving. A transposed number can be devastating. If your scorer is easily distracted or is more interested in watching the race, politely thank them for the job they have done and find someone else.
In the instance of the aformentioned sixteen second laps, if in the first eight laps while you were getting settled in you were only turning eighteen second laps, you will be a lap down already. The scorers that check the cards are pretty sharp and I think they still score you up in the booth, too. If I am not mistaken though, the cards are still what the final rundown comes from. I've been on both sides of that scorecard and had a verrry tough time believing how things shook out. The perception you have while turning laps versus what is going on are not always the same. If you are absolutely sure something is amuck, ask to see the cards after the show. They used to wind up in the ticket office by the pit gate (where you get paid). It won't change anything, but it may give you a clearer understanding of what transpired. JMO as always.

[vsmidge68]

As I wrote before the times I used were not specific, just examples. The point I am trying to make is this: The DRIVERS need to know that CREATIVE scoring will NOT be tolerated. This is a management issue. If they disqualify cars for being illegal in tech, then why not for improper scoring? I am absolutely having 2nd thoughts about spending anymore $$ to have Donny get screwed by this type of crap. I feel he (and the other drivers) deserve better. No one wants to lose a race, but we would rather be beaten on the track, not in the scorers stands. That's not my opinion, it's a FACT.

P.S. That is a good idea, if we go, I will be looking for the score cards next time, if I think something is amiss.

[wayne]

YOU PEOPLE FROM FLANDERS AUTO ARE NUTHIN BUT TROUBLE!!!!!!!

[fisherman]

hey wayne but you are part of the flanders gang

[vsmidge68]

Must be in the water.

[good2go1963]

I'm not really sure how many years you've been going out there, but creative scoring never has been tolerated by the management. I can remember probably at least 10 years ago while scoring an enduro seeing the guy sitting next to me get his card taken away and he was told to leave the scoring area. Also, cars do get disqualified for problems with their score cards, which is why it surprised me that you say it's not that difficult. There is a great deal of importance on the job the scorer is doing, because someone can run a beautiful race and win or come in 2nd, third, etc, and lose it due to a problem with the card.
I have to agree with the earlier post that the perception while you are in the car may be different then what is really going on. Also, while scoring, it's next to impossible to know which cars the car you are scoring has lapped once, twice, etc, etc. If you have enough time to tell how many 360s another car did when they spun out, then you aren't watching the car you're scoring closely enough. The best bet is to have a scorer who can keep their eyes and attention only on the car they are scoring.

[vsmidge68]

I'm not sure if you were there on Sunday, but I can tell you there were only 22 or 23 cars that started the race and if a car spins next to or by your car you absolutely can see it without taking your eyes off of your car. I think there is some confusion about what I said about the driver knowing it won't be tolerated ........What I meant was this.......The driver should be held responsible if his/her scorer is scoring creatively. It's not as if the driver can score from the track. You don't have to know who is on the lead lap and who isn't. That is why you have the score cards and why the scoring is so important. In my earlier post I said that a track scorer should write down who spins and who is in the infield. That way, when they compare the cards if the whole card is full or inconsistant they can tell.

Note to Wayne: The proper way to spell nothing is N-O-T-H-I-N-G. I understand though, you graduated from Flanders U! lol!!

[good2go1963]

OK, yep I did understand what you said and sometimes these back and forth threads end up not getting anywhere so this will be my last thought on it.
The driver is held responsible for his or her scorer. It has been that way for years and years basically as long as I remember. Like I said I have seen people get disqualified because of their scorecard and not just "creative" scoring for erase marks or scratch overs. It's been that way at any track I ever scored at and Riverhead is no different. The people who handle the scoring for the track are very precise about this. No I wasn't there on Sunday I am in North Carolina so I was at the 600. I can't comment on the race because I didn't see it but as a side note I believe the track officials in scoring do hand score cars that are either up front or questionable and I'm sure the card is compared to the scorer who scored that car. I can't say if this is done all the time but I am sure it has been done. My suggestion would be that if this happens to you again then to ask to speak to the head scorer and they can explain any questions you have on cars you feel your car lapped. (Actually I believe the driver would have to do that) Good Luck.

[vsmidge68]

Yes I think we have all made our point.